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Reciprocal agreement with the EU on the transfer of UK CAA Flight Crew Licences.

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Reciprocal agreement with the EU on the transfer of UK CAA Flight Crew Licences.

Old 29th Mar 2021, 11:13
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Reciprocal agreement with the EU on the transfer of UK CAA Flight Crew Licences.

To seek a reciprocal agreement between the UK and EU with the transfer of UK CAA Flight Crew Licences to EASA member states to avoid applicants having to convert their licences by retaking all fourteen ATPL exams in an EASA state, a skills tests, an EASA ELP test and class 1 EASA medical.
More detailsSign this petitionhttps://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/578133
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 11:49
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What happened? Wasn't Brexit all about the endless opportunities? (Rant over)

ps good luck, good initiative
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 13:45
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No, I won't sign it.
The EU offered the UK to remain part of EASA and the offer was turned down.

However, I would propose a pathway for those European pilots that were unable to transfer their license to any other EASA authority because they were working for a UK operator.

For the others, Brexit means Brexit and if you don't have a EU passport you won't get that far.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 14:06
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You realise British people were also "European pilots that were unable to transfer their license to any other EASA authority because they were working for a UK operator."
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 14:23
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Were, but are no longer. So there is a difference between those continuing to be EU citizens and those that are not anymore, not forced, but because they wanted to be out.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 17:06
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Not entirely sure what purpose the above animosity serves... last time i checked we were pilots, not politicians.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 17:12
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No animosity. Just a fact. Or then we can start demanding reciprocal agreement between the EASA and the FAA, JCAB, CASA, TC, SACAA, NZCAA, etc.

And a Brit simply no longer has the right to live and work in the EU.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 18:11
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Isn’t progress wonderful.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 18:42
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Why are you lot conflating EASA licences with nationality? No connection. So the British are mad for deciding to leave such pillars of efficiency as the EU Joint (vaccine) Procurement agency. ;-) Ok, we get it, time to move on, dear spurned lovers...

Last edited by Joe le Taxi; 29th Mar 2021 at 18:59.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 19:18
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I am always amazed at the level of vitriol the internet attracts. The issue of reciprocity of licences is really one of fairness. The U.K. airlines that I worked for welcomed Europeans and I was personally delighted to fly with them. We do the same job. Same tests. The national airlines in the European sector will generally employ their own first mainly on the grounds of language which I suppose is fair enough. BJ if you don’t want to sign please don’t however it is bewildering that you feel the need to inform us.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 20:09
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One valid point still stands though: assuming a bilateral agreement or a facilitated licence conversion process were in place, what would be the point? UK nationals canít work in Europe anymore unless they hold an unrestricted EU passport - forget a working visa, no chance in this market! The only EASA licence job in the UK I could think of would be Ryanair.

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Old 29th Mar 2021, 20:34
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Banana Joe - I passed 14 EASA exams, why should they no longer be valid for issue of an EASA ATPL for example if I meet all the other 3rd country requirements?

Banana Joe and Bones - UK citizens have the right to live and work in Ireland, plus there are jobs in the UK (Ryanair), and outside of the EU, that require EASA licences for various reasons.

The UK is recognising EASA licences for 2 years, and providing a pathway to gain a UK licence, which will benefit UK and EU citizen EASA licence holders. Is it unreasonable to ask for reciprocation to be considered?
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 20:55
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Banana Joe

Not so simple as you seem to think . I’m a Brit and I live and work in the EU .. and continue to do so without any issues at all .
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 20:59
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But you won't be able to change country.

As for Ireland, get a validation. The rest is cherry picking.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 21:11
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Originally Posted by rogue leader View Post
Banana Joe - I passed 14 EASA exams, why should they no longer be valid for issue of an EASA ATPL for example if I meet all the other 3rd country requirements?
If you have passed the 14 exams before 31st December 2020, you can still use them for an EASA licence application; having said that you will need a new EASA initial medical. If you need more details, let me know.

UK citizens have the right to live and work in Ireland,
Right to live and work in Ireland is NOT the same as unrestricted right to live and work in the EU. Clearly stated on Ryanair website. I guess you could ask directly Ryanair HR dept for clarification? Have a look on LinkedIn perhaps.

there are jobs in the UK (Ryanair), and outside of the EU, that require EASA licences for various reasons.
I canít think of any outfit in the UK other than RYR requiring an EASA licence only. But you could be well right, iím not disputing that!

The UK is recognising EASA licences for 2 years, and providing a pathway to gain a UK licence
Not quite. The UK CAA is only recognising EASA licences issued PRIOR 31st December 2020. For EASA licences issued after, no recognition.
Similarly, the pathway you mention to obtain UK part-FCL licences only applies to those who previously HELD a UK issued EASA licence AND SOLIíed out.

Is it unreasonable to ask for reciprocation to be considered?
Please donít take it personally, but the risks of a hard Brexit have been obvious since 2018. EASA and the UK CAA have been very clear on their respective websites.

I really find this whole story terribly sad: Iím genuinely sorry for all those fallen through the cracks. But ultimately it was the UK that wanted out; EASA membership was offered and indeed wanted by the UK CAA. However the Transport Secretary had different ideas.

I truly hope some compromise can be found; anything from rejoining EASA or a facilitated licence conversion would great (eg get a new medical, sit Air Law and a skill test?). As for the petition, I canít sign it because I havenít got the right to; I shall however share it among my colleagues and friends!

Last edited by BONES_; 29th Mar 2021 at 21:36.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 21:39
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Bones, thank you for the reply.

If you know how a UK CPL holder (former UK EASA CPL holder) who meets all the other EASA requirements for issue of an ATPL to a 3rd country applicant can use their 14 EASA exam passes taken in the UK by 31/12/20 I would be very interested.

There are flying jobs in Ireland which don't require unrestricted right to live and work in the EU, but do require an EASA licence - Banana Joe's suggestion of a validation is a more difficult and short term solution.

Ryanair will accept applications from UK passport holders to work on the UK AOC, but only if they have an EASA licence.

Recognition applies to any holders (of any nationality or citizenship) of current EASA licences issued by any EASA state up to and including 31/12/20, unless you applied to SOLI transfer out of the UK by that date, in which case it applies to EASA licences issued up to and including 31/3/21.

The EASA to UK pathway is open from 1/4/21 to anyone (of any nationality or citizenship) who currently holds an EASA licence issued by any EASA state up to and including 31/12/20, unless you applied to SOLI out of the UK by that date, in which case there is no restriction on issue date.

I'm suggesting reciprocation, so a system for those who completed all the EASA theoretical and practical training in the UK, and were issued an EASA licence by the UK CAA (valid for life at time of issue) prior to us leaving the EU. Since 1/1/21 we are no longer in EASA so licences issued in the UK after that date are unfortunately no longer equivalent, and vice-versa.

EASA and the CAA may have been clear on their websites, but some of your fellow pilots have been instructed by their employers on what they could do. Others will have been unable to SOLI transfer out of the UK in order to retain their well earned EASA licence as if they had an LPC due at a UK employer between receiving their new EASA licence, and being able to apply for and receive their UK licence after 1/4/21, they would have needed an EASA licence TRE and sim/aircraft to do it in.

I thank the EU for offering to allow us to stay in EASA, and I wish we had, but there were certain legal and ideological ties that would have involved which were deemed unpalatable given the result of the democratic process, so a political decision was made. This should not interfere with legitimate, reasonable and perfectly sensible agreements being made for the benefit of UK and EU citizen aircrew moving forward.

https://info.caa.co.uk/uk-eu-transit...ercial-pilots/

Last edited by rogue leader; 29th Mar 2021 at 21:58.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 10:07
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This is a case of professional pilots (and many others, in other industries) being held hostage to politics. We have a self-obsessed, inflexible, bureaucratic monster engaging with a stubborn, petulant and immature government that wants to turn the clock back 100 years. Not a great recipe for progress.

In the meantime, the only thing left to do to repair this mess is to engage with our political representatives, although my concern is those in a position to make things happen are simply not interested.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 13:00
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I can understand the frustration caused by the choices of the UK government. And of course it is a course of action to petition said government to change its mind.

However, there is of course another party to any such agreement, and the situation has now changed. There is a huge surplus of pilots in the EU to begin with, without having to accommodate third country immigrant workers competing for jobs and driving down wages even more than they are now already. In the end, the EU is responsible for the wellbeing of its own citizens, not those of third countries. Therefore, there is of course a justified case to be made to make it easier for EU citizens to reclaim their EASA license, not so much for non-EU citizens.

The EU never demanded license acceptance by the UK, it was the unilateral choice of the UK to grant that, most probably driven by the inability to exchange former UK issued EASA licenses to valid UK licenses in a timely manner and under lobbying from UK airlines, who, unlike their employees, sometimes do get heard at government level.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 16:58
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Well it all seems to be a bit confused I think.
DHL UK still seem to be able to fly point to point in Europe. Have all the DHL pilots SOLIíed out? Could be a storm brewing if they havenít and the airframes have to transfer to the D reg...
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 17:24
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Isn’t sourcing funding and completing pilot training complex enough without this problem. What precedence do we set for the next generation when we can’t even recognise that one or the other is exactly the same.
Utter shambles and those involved should be ashamed.
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