Working as a Pilot in China
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Shower house of Africa
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the book is awesome. keep up the good work gentlemen.
I thought I should share this story with you.
My wife and I decided to holiday in Thailand (mid 2013). One of the attractions was Maya Beach on Koh Phi Phi Lei.
the island where the movie "The Beach" was filmed.
So we arrived there in the morning via hotel speed boat and while admiring it's prestine beach and breathtaking views...etc
In the distance a massive cruise ship arrived. From a distance we could see people being loaded onto smaller boats and sent to shore to "enjoy".....presumably the prestine beach.
Within minutes "the beach" was consumed with a zillion Chinese tourists armed with picnic baskets and the like.
There were large sign posts all over directing people to the public toilet.
So I was standing on the shore next to my wife. On my left was a Chinese women. She obviously felt very comfortable with her surroundings and proceeded to dig a hole and squat in it......WTF ...once she was done she pulled up her pants , covered the hole and that was that.......
We were brave and decided to hang about till we could have the beach to ourselves and maybe take a swim (LOL).
After an hour the people were loaded back onto the smaller boats and taken back to the "mother ship".
Needless to say the beach which was prestine (an hour ago) was now covered with litter and everything that could dessimate the sea life in a flash and serve as a BBC documentary ....
I would not want to think about everyday life in China. No matter how much cash you throw at me.
Good luck to you guys over there.
I thought I should share this story with you.
My wife and I decided to holiday in Thailand (mid 2013). One of the attractions was Maya Beach on Koh Phi Phi Lei.
the island where the movie "The Beach" was filmed.
So we arrived there in the morning via hotel speed boat and while admiring it's prestine beach and breathtaking views...etc
In the distance a massive cruise ship arrived. From a distance we could see people being loaded onto smaller boats and sent to shore to "enjoy".....presumably the prestine beach.
Within minutes "the beach" was consumed with a zillion Chinese tourists armed with picnic baskets and the like.
There were large sign posts all over directing people to the public toilet.
So I was standing on the shore next to my wife. On my left was a Chinese women. She obviously felt very comfortable with her surroundings and proceeded to dig a hole and squat in it......WTF ...once she was done she pulled up her pants , covered the hole and that was that.......
We were brave and decided to hang about till we could have the beach to ourselves and maybe take a swim (LOL).
After an hour the people were loaded back onto the smaller boats and taken back to the "mother ship".
Needless to say the beach which was prestine (an hour ago) was now covered with litter and everything that could dessimate the sea life in a flash and serve as a BBC documentary ....
I would not want to think about everyday life in China. No matter how much cash you throw at me.
Good luck to you guys over there.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[USMCProbe wrote:] There are some bad stories as well. But there are enough wankers on these forums complaining, I will leave that up to them.
..but, that's none of my business. Please, keep telling us how great it is to be getting paid by the enemy as an ex-Marine again?
I mean... you wouldn't be ignoring this kind of thing and putting it behind you just because you're getting a nice fat bank account, would ya Probe?
Nah! An ex-Marine should never be accused of engaging in ignoring such things. Pure madness!
Nah! An ex-Marine should never be accused of engaging in ignoring such things. Pure madness!
Last edited by looseygoosey; 9th Aug 2015 at 21:08. Reason: Adding some extra shee-it to make a point.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Earth
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jeepers LooseGoose,
What a tirade. Looks like you want to start WWIII. The USA is definitely not a saint or a victim in the world of geopolitical manipulation. And the US government is no real friend to its service personnel either. Especially after it has used and abused them and returned them home to the country they purportedly defended without their limbs. So perhaps on this topic you should pull you head out of that dark place you frequently wipe.
Wooblah.
What a tirade. Looks like you want to start WWIII. The USA is definitely not a saint or a victim in the world of geopolitical manipulation. And the US government is no real friend to its service personnel either. Especially after it has used and abused them and returned them home to the country they purportedly defended without their limbs. So perhaps on this topic you should pull you head out of that dark place you frequently wipe.
Wooblah.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wyoming
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Goosey,
Obviously you were not above having worked there with your pompous moral standards. At least USMC remembered to get his gear up in a timely manner and has the opportunity if he chooses to work there again. There is some humor in your book but obviously you did not play the game well there. the key is fitting in and not rocking the boat too much so that in 6-8 years in China you will leave with a $1.5 million portoflio and retire never to have to fly again unless its it your own small aircraft.
Obviously you were not above having worked there with your pompous moral standards. At least USMC remembered to get his gear up in a timely manner and has the opportunity if he chooses to work there again. There is some humor in your book but obviously you did not play the game well there. the key is fitting in and not rocking the boat too much so that in 6-8 years in China you will leave with a $1.5 million portoflio and retire never to have to fly again unless its it your own small aircraft.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: china
Age: 61
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bad attitudes are continuous, and self-perpetuating. I guaranty if Goosey ever gets a job anywhere again, He will leave again just as pis$ed off.
Everything will be their fault. They are so screwed up.
There is a bottom 10% everywhere, unfortunately that group is by far the most vocal on PPRUNE.
Everything will be their fault. They are so screwed up.
There is a bottom 10% everywhere, unfortunately that group is by far the most vocal on PPRUNE.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, what I'm reacting to is the following:
I'm not going to take kindly to being called a w@nker the more so because there are actual legitimate complaints, concerns and discussions to be had of real-world risks working as a contract pilot in a country like China. I'm brave enough (as well as my contributors) to put it out there for others to pick apart and armchair quarterback as they choose. For my particular case (which is duplicated in the experiences of several other captains in our book), I went fairly blindly into a contract in China and weathered something like 4 years. Being that I quit my job in the US I had no "out" because I was foolish, and when the time did come to pull out of China I went on my merry way to other things, not looking back with any regret for having left. Having said that, I have encountered too many pilots who were shocked at what they had gotten themselves into in China and THIS is my purpose here, to address this need for information.
If you want to call this pompous or the words of a w@nker, that's your choice. But then, I'm no damned Mother Theresa either and if you attack me I will defend myself and the intent of the book.
Probe has taken it upon himself to paint fellow Americans with colors that are abusively incorrect. What we have here is a coolaid drinker who will say anything to validate his choices in career (trolling), not a reasonable commenter.
Yes, it was an amazing experience to have Flight Attendants literally run to go clean the head before I used it too... but you know what, this gesture was not a generous tip; it was coerced behavior within a highly oppressive regime. People have to PAY their way into the job of cabin crew in China, and once there they have an unbelievable set of responsibilities thrust upon them; in the West we'd call it corrupt, harassment and a litany of other labels and expressions.
But, USMCProbe, the same guy who shoveled **** in Shreveport and dedicated his life to serving in the Marines wants to shift loyalty to the red flag with yellow stars, so be it. I made a vocal, determined statement before I left the US to go to China, and that was a flat-out declaration that I had loyalties that remained in the US (and the West in general) and that I would not express discontent in terms of putting China at the top of the heirarchy.
Indeed, this is not to say I feel America is above criticism, heavens no. Absolutely not; there are a LOT of challenges facing our nation and our behavior with international policy has been atrocious. It is also not to say that my concept of America is so delicate as to not withstand critique.
L.G.
USMCProbe: But there are enough wankers on these forums complaining...
If you want to call this pompous or the words of a w@nker, that's your choice. But then, I'm no damned Mother Theresa either and if you attack me I will defend myself and the intent of the book.
Probe has taken it upon himself to paint fellow Americans with colors that are abusively incorrect. What we have here is a coolaid drinker who will say anything to validate his choices in career (trolling), not a reasonable commenter.
Yes, it was an amazing experience to have Flight Attendants literally run to go clean the head before I used it too... but you know what, this gesture was not a generous tip; it was coerced behavior within a highly oppressive regime. People have to PAY their way into the job of cabin crew in China, and once there they have an unbelievable set of responsibilities thrust upon them; in the West we'd call it corrupt, harassment and a litany of other labels and expressions.
But, USMCProbe, the same guy who shoveled **** in Shreveport and dedicated his life to serving in the Marines wants to shift loyalty to the red flag with yellow stars, so be it. I made a vocal, determined statement before I left the US to go to China, and that was a flat-out declaration that I had loyalties that remained in the US (and the West in general) and that I would not express discontent in terms of putting China at the top of the heirarchy.
Indeed, this is not to say I feel America is above criticism, heavens no. Absolutely not; there are a LOT of challenges facing our nation and our behavior with international policy has been atrocious. It is also not to say that my concept of America is so delicate as to not withstand critique.
L.G.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WYOMINGPILOT: the key is fitting in and not rocking the boat too much so that in 6-8 years in China you will leave with a $1.5 million portoflio and retire never to have to fly again unless its it your own small aircraft
Take, for instance, the heading that starts on page 58 where Tianjin Airlines defines "abnormal situation":
Let that list sink in for a minute. Notice in particular how items like #7. Hijack and #8. Inflight Fire are grouped with things like #12. Communication Failure and #21. Go-around. This should begin to illustrate how the concept, “I will go there to fly their jets the way they want them flown and just collect my paycheck” is on a collision course with reality.
I (and my contributors) encourage the newbie contract pilot to do some serious thinking before taking the plunge. There are some really important issues that need to be worked through before potentially signing your life away; some pilots are content to do that for the promise of big money and fabulous prizes. The REALITY is much different, and THIS message is what we are trying to relay in FUD.
Read between the lines of funny exchanges and "I can't believe it" incredulity. You may find wisdom, you many not.
(But, if it's name calling anyone is after, I will take the right to defend myself.)
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I struggle a bit with this book. A lot of good information, but heavily anti China and anti Chinese.
I just don't think it is possible put more than a billion people into the same bag.
A lot of the issues are common for most expat jobs out there.
Was this your first time working outside USA?
As for the book itself. You knowledge is centered around one airline, but there are many other airlines in China. You write about some incidents, and pretty much say this is the way it is in China, but there is no way you can know this.
Some of the things you claim are just not correct. The Chinese are idiots for not using oxygen when one pilot is out of the cockpit and the aircraft is above 25000 ft? Where in the world is this a procedure?
I have flown to China, but never worked there. I have stayed in China, but never lived there, so my knowledge is limited. Would I work in China? Maybe, but not before doing a lot of research. Your book should be mandatory reading for anyone thinking about China, I just wish it was a bit less....hateful.
Something really bad must have happened to you over there.
I just don't think it is possible put more than a billion people into the same bag.
A lot of the issues are common for most expat jobs out there.
Was this your first time working outside USA?
As for the book itself. You knowledge is centered around one airline, but there are many other airlines in China. You write about some incidents, and pretty much say this is the way it is in China, but there is no way you can know this.
Some of the things you claim are just not correct. The Chinese are idiots for not using oxygen when one pilot is out of the cockpit and the aircraft is above 25000 ft? Where in the world is this a procedure?
I have flown to China, but never worked there. I have stayed in China, but never lived there, so my knowledge is limited. Would I work in China? Maybe, but not before doing a lot of research. Your book should be mandatory reading for anyone thinking about China, I just wish it was a bit less....hateful.
Something really bad must have happened to you over there.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I struggle a bit with this book. A lot of good information, but heavily anti China and anti Chinese.
I just don't think it is possible put more than a billion people into the same bag.
A lot of the issues are common for most expat jobs out there.
Was this your first time working outside USA?
As for the book itself. You knowledge is centered around one airline, but there are many other airlines in China. You write about some incidents, and pretty much say this is the way it is in China, but there is no way you can know this.
Some of the things you claim are just not correct. The Chinese are idiots for not using oxygen when one pilot is out of the cockpit and the aircraft is above 25000 ft? Where in the world is this a procedure?
I have flown to China, but never worked there. I have stayed in China, but never lived there, so my knowledge is limited. Would I work in China? Maybe, but not before doing a lot of research. Your book should be mandatory reading for anyone thinking about China, I just wish it was a bit less....hateful.
Something really bad must have happened to you over there.
I just don't think it is possible put more than a billion people into the same bag.
A lot of the issues are common for most expat jobs out there.
Was this your first time working outside USA?
As for the book itself. You knowledge is centered around one airline, but there are many other airlines in China. You write about some incidents, and pretty much say this is the way it is in China, but there is no way you can know this.
Some of the things you claim are just not correct. The Chinese are idiots for not using oxygen when one pilot is out of the cockpit and the aircraft is above 25000 ft? Where in the world is this a procedure?
I have flown to China, but never worked there. I have stayed in China, but never lived there, so my knowledge is limited. Would I work in China? Maybe, but not before doing a lot of research. Your book should be mandatory reading for anyone thinking about China, I just wish it was a bit less....hateful.
Something really bad must have happened to you over there.
For a westerner like me (and others who contributed to FUD) what you have to understand is that the Chinese are extremely homogeneous. China is for the Chinese, about the Chinese and not much else. In your research I'd recommend looking up "sinocentrism" for some more background. But you are correct, on a one-to-one basis, the Chinese can be quite lovely. We cover this in the first section of our book.
I and several other captains who contributed have worked outside of the US or did not hail from the USA (being either European or South American). Some were more anti-China than others.
The CAAC is... insane. Imagine the FAA on PMS and LSD and you have a pretty good description. Being the governing force, you can imagine the influence this has on airlines throughout the great nation in general. We did touch on a few outside stories, but I veiled them in some instances to protect the anonymity of the story tellers. But you are right, we could use more stories from other airlines. I have received a few messages from potential future contributors for volume II of FUD.
RE: FL250 and wearing O2 when a pilot leaves the deck, this is pretty common in the regulations. Here is an excerpt of the regulation (FAR 121.333):
FAR Part § 121.333: Supplemental oxygen for emergency descent and for first aid; turbine engine powered airplanes with pressurized cabins -- FAA FARS, 14 CFR
(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (c)(2) of this section, if for any reason at any time it is necessary for one pilot to leave his station at the controls of the airplane when operating at flight altitudes above flight level 250, the remaining pilot at the controls shall put on and use his oxygen mask until the other pilot has returned to his duty station.
L.G.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: KL
Age: 64
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fully agreed with Mana's opinion.
Loosy,
The donning of oxygen mask by remaining pilot in the cockpit is NOT required, if your aircraft has a quick don oxy system. Please refer to the same FAR reference section 2, part i. I very much doubt any commercial airliner that hires foreigners in China doesn't have a quick don oxy system.
I mean no disrespect here but this is yet another excellent example to showcase how silly your colleague can be in quoting something from the FAA without understanding fully and trying to ridicule the locals. IMHO, You folks have no ground to stand on this one.
Final note, if all of you are suffering that much with hatred and ungratefulness, suggest you find a better job elsewhere. If that's not an option you need to put bread on the table, learn to adapt and and contribute more humbly and positively please.
Loosy,
The donning of oxygen mask by remaining pilot in the cockpit is NOT required, if your aircraft has a quick don oxy system. Please refer to the same FAR reference section 2, part i. I very much doubt any commercial airliner that hires foreigners in China doesn't have a quick don oxy system.
I mean no disrespect here but this is yet another excellent example to showcase how silly your colleague can be in quoting something from the FAA without understanding fully and trying to ridicule the locals. IMHO, You folks have no ground to stand on this one.
Final note, if all of you are suffering that much with hatred and ungratefulness, suggest you find a better job elsewhere. If that's not an option you need to put bread on the table, learn to adapt and and contribute more humbly and positively please.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Earth
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Loosey,
I'm jumping in here and going to say I totally agree with the previous posters. Just too much hate. Furthermore I reckon China should be for the Chinese. The USA has probably the worst record in hiring foreign pilots. Ie. They don't hire en-mass. Generally you need a green card. Additionally except for the Legacy carriers US regionals pay peanuts. So in reality China is giving most of you a job and a chance to further your careers.
Because I'm pretty much sure that if you got anything close to what you are getting in China at home you would be backstabbing each other to jump aboard.
Wooblah.
I'm jumping in here and going to say I totally agree with the previous posters. Just too much hate. Furthermore I reckon China should be for the Chinese. The USA has probably the worst record in hiring foreign pilots. Ie. They don't hire en-mass. Generally you need a green card. Additionally except for the Legacy carriers US regionals pay peanuts. So in reality China is giving most of you a job and a chance to further your careers.
Because I'm pretty much sure that if you got anything close to what you are getting in China at home you would be backstabbing each other to jump aboard.
Wooblah.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: U K
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an expat pilot you have to a simple choice to make: Stay in a system that does not meet Western/ or even minimum standards of safety, or leave.
If you continue to work in a system that puts peoples lives at risk unnecessarily or even intentionally do you not have a moral obligation to stop supporting this system? Would it be seen as acceptable for e.g. a Doctor of Medicine to follow procedures he knows to be incorrect or to turn a blind eye to the incompetence of his peers in return for cold hard cash?
If you fly in S.E Asia you will find:
1) The unalterable blind faith that safety is ensured by absolute adherence to minor SOPS. That there can only be one SOP to cover all conditions. E.g Why so many runway over-runs in SE Asia? There is only one reverse and or brake setting that is SOP regardless of runway length or condition.
2) That all SOPs are equal i.e. the correct setting of the Altimeters is no less or more important than then the correct phraseology when releasing the Engineer after engine start.
3) The ability to fly the aircraft in a normal or abnormal configuration is seen as a minor skill and irrelevant, and anyway it is somewhat subjective and hard to assess, unlike a black and white SOP.
4) The ability to manage a flight deck is irrelevant, and anyway it is somewhat subjective and hard to assess, unlike a black and white SOP.
5) There is no word in any Asian language for 'Airmanship".
6) If it is in a manual it is fact even if it is an obvious typo.
7) Technical knowledge of aircraft systems is pointless as you would not be allowed to apply it anyway if it means deviating from SOPs.
8) Flight Data monitoring is there to prove local pilots are always better than foreigners.
9) A good old culture of blame and punishment.
The whole of SE Asia suffers from the 'China syndrome' to some extent. In China it is somewhat exaggerated and extreme.
If you think all of these things actually put peoples lives at risk I believe you must show integrity and get out. By taking the money, and keeping these airlines flying, you are enabling.
Cleve Saville (Major Ret.)
If you continue to work in a system that puts peoples lives at risk unnecessarily or even intentionally do you not have a moral obligation to stop supporting this system? Would it be seen as acceptable for e.g. a Doctor of Medicine to follow procedures he knows to be incorrect or to turn a blind eye to the incompetence of his peers in return for cold hard cash?
If you fly in S.E Asia you will find:
1) The unalterable blind faith that safety is ensured by absolute adherence to minor SOPS. That there can only be one SOP to cover all conditions. E.g Why so many runway over-runs in SE Asia? There is only one reverse and or brake setting that is SOP regardless of runway length or condition.
2) That all SOPs are equal i.e. the correct setting of the Altimeters is no less or more important than then the correct phraseology when releasing the Engineer after engine start.
3) The ability to fly the aircraft in a normal or abnormal configuration is seen as a minor skill and irrelevant, and anyway it is somewhat subjective and hard to assess, unlike a black and white SOP.
4) The ability to manage a flight deck is irrelevant, and anyway it is somewhat subjective and hard to assess, unlike a black and white SOP.
5) There is no word in any Asian language for 'Airmanship".
6) If it is in a manual it is fact even if it is an obvious typo.
7) Technical knowledge of aircraft systems is pointless as you would not be allowed to apply it anyway if it means deviating from SOPs.
8) Flight Data monitoring is there to prove local pilots are always better than foreigners.
9) A good old culture of blame and punishment.
The whole of SE Asia suffers from the 'China syndrome' to some extent. In China it is somewhat exaggerated and extreme.
If you think all of these things actually put peoples lives at risk I believe you must show integrity and get out. By taking the money, and keeping these airlines flying, you are enabling.
Cleve Saville (Major Ret.)
Last edited by Major Cleve Saville; 14th Aug 2015 at 07:08.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you fly in S.E Asia you will find:
1) The unalterable blind faith that safety is ensured by absolute adherence to minor SOPS. That there can only be one SOP to cover all conditions. E.g Why so many runway over-runs in SE Asia? There is only one reverse and or brake setting that is SOP regardless of runway length or condition.
2) That all SOPs are equal i.e. the correct setting of the Altimeters is no less or more important than then the correct phraseology when releasing the Engineer after engine start.
3) The ability to fly the aircraft in a normal or abnormal configuration is seen as a minor skill and irrelevant, and anyway it is somewhat subjective and hard to assess, unlike a black and white SOP.
4) The ability to manage a flight deck is irrelevant, and anyway it is somewhat subjective and hard to assess, unlike a black and white SOP.
5) There is no word in any Asian language for 'Airmanship".
6) If it is in a manual it is fact even if it is an obvious typo.
7) Technical knowledge of aircraft systems is pointless as you would not be allowed to apply it anyway if it means deviating from SOPs.
8) Flight Data monitoring is there to prove local pilots are always better than foreigners.
9) A good old culture of blame and punishment.
The whole of SE Asia suffers from the 'China syndrome' to some extent. In China it is somewhat exaggerated and extreme.
If you think all of these things actually put peoples lives at risk I believe you must show integrity and get out. By taking the money, and keeping these airlines flying, you are enabling.
1) The unalterable blind faith that safety is ensured by absolute adherence to minor SOPS. That there can only be one SOP to cover all conditions. E.g Why so many runway over-runs in SE Asia? There is only one reverse and or brake setting that is SOP regardless of runway length or condition.
2) That all SOPs are equal i.e. the correct setting of the Altimeters is no less or more important than then the correct phraseology when releasing the Engineer after engine start.
3) The ability to fly the aircraft in a normal or abnormal configuration is seen as a minor skill and irrelevant, and anyway it is somewhat subjective and hard to assess, unlike a black and white SOP.
4) The ability to manage a flight deck is irrelevant, and anyway it is somewhat subjective and hard to assess, unlike a black and white SOP.
5) There is no word in any Asian language for 'Airmanship".
6) If it is in a manual it is fact even if it is an obvious typo.
7) Technical knowledge of aircraft systems is pointless as you would not be allowed to apply it anyway if it means deviating from SOPs.
8) Flight Data monitoring is there to prove local pilots are always better than foreigners.
9) A good old culture of blame and punishment.
The whole of SE Asia suffers from the 'China syndrome' to some extent. In China it is somewhat exaggerated and extreme.
If you think all of these things actually put peoples lives at risk I believe you must show integrity and get out. By taking the money, and keeping these airlines flying, you are enabling.
Cleve,
Just curious:
Is Asian aviation better off with or without influences that may modify and improve these factors?
Do you think the Asian aviation consumer will either punish or reward those carriers that choose to do without such influences, given the general lack of information on aviation safety cultures and standards in the area? Do the consumers actually have any real choice at all?
Do you really think that the presence of expats is in any way critical to keeping any of these carriers flying?
Just curious.
Regards,
ELAC
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have worked in several parts of the world, and I recognize what you are saying Major.
I can also turn your statements upside down, and say that in those airlines I have worked, the expats always claim that the local guys can't fly, can't run an airline, and are basically worse in all aspects than the expats. Some expat nationalities are way "superior" than others. Other nationalities seem to fit in almost anywhere they go.
BTW, the SOP way of running airlines is alive and well in Europe too. Look at the LoCo P2F airlines where they detail when to set flaps, when to select gear down, and the way they treat those who do wrong.
Back to the book. There is a story about a captain who gets food poisoned. This is somehow blamed on the Chinese. This captain keeps flying several sectors while he pukes his guts out. I'm all for getting the job done, but he should have stood down after he filled the first barf bag. To continue was a bad decision.
The Chinese first officers are not allowed to do landings. Like it or not, that is the way it is. Yet, in the book, an expat captain allows a Chinese FO to land. This captain knows every flight is monitored. Still he lets the FO land, and when things go tits up (surprise!), he does not take command, but interferes with the controls and is surprised when the FO lets go of the controls. Nobody is on the throttles, and he nearly has a tail strike, and lands with 1.61 G.
Who is to blame? The Chinese FO who has hardly done any landings before, or the expat captain? A very bad decision by the captain.
Return to base when you encounter a CB? If the airway is closed due weather, and you are denied flying around it, what do you do? And if you divert and have the possibilty to bring the aircraft back to base or your point of departure, is that a bad decision?
Speaking of denied. Is it fair to say that denied diversions happens mostly when expats are flying? And the reason could be due to, say, an American who is asking for a diversion to a military or joint military/commercial airport?
I'm not saying everything is good in China (or SE Asia), but the picture is never just black or white.
I can also turn your statements upside down, and say that in those airlines I have worked, the expats always claim that the local guys can't fly, can't run an airline, and are basically worse in all aspects than the expats. Some expat nationalities are way "superior" than others. Other nationalities seem to fit in almost anywhere they go.
BTW, the SOP way of running airlines is alive and well in Europe too. Look at the LoCo P2F airlines where they detail when to set flaps, when to select gear down, and the way they treat those who do wrong.
Back to the book. There is a story about a captain who gets food poisoned. This is somehow blamed on the Chinese. This captain keeps flying several sectors while he pukes his guts out. I'm all for getting the job done, but he should have stood down after he filled the first barf bag. To continue was a bad decision.
The Chinese first officers are not allowed to do landings. Like it or not, that is the way it is. Yet, in the book, an expat captain allows a Chinese FO to land. This captain knows every flight is monitored. Still he lets the FO land, and when things go tits up (surprise!), he does not take command, but interferes with the controls and is surprised when the FO lets go of the controls. Nobody is on the throttles, and he nearly has a tail strike, and lands with 1.61 G.
Who is to blame? The Chinese FO who has hardly done any landings before, or the expat captain? A very bad decision by the captain.
Return to base when you encounter a CB? If the airway is closed due weather, and you are denied flying around it, what do you do? And if you divert and have the possibilty to bring the aircraft back to base or your point of departure, is that a bad decision?
Speaking of denied. Is it fair to say that denied diversions happens mostly when expats are flying? And the reason could be due to, say, an American who is asking for a diversion to a military or joint military/commercial airport?
I'm not saying everything is good in China (or SE Asia), but the picture is never just black or white.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: hang on let me check
Posts: 654
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys, we can talk all we want but the truth is they wouldn't pay you the big bucks if they were in line with western countries. To endure all these "differences", that's what you're payed for.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: U K
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ELAC
Can you give me an example where the Chinese airlines in particular have modified their operations after input from the 'foreigners'. A handful of expats will not change the outlook of thousands of years of cultural influence.
The Koreans were forced into hiring expats as a result of their accident record. However reading posts on all the Korean carriers you know that fundamentally the local culture wins through.
It is unfortunate for Asia that aviation is constructed around western attitudes and outlooks with an assumption that individuals take responsibility for their actions and are capable of independent thought. Aviation has progressed through admitting we made mistakes, did not get it right, and made changes accordingly.
How do you get a culture to change where: 'the leaders' are the only ones who can make decisions, and to change anything would be an admission that they dot it 'wrong' and face has been lost?
I would suggest that had Asia been the prime manufacturers of Aircraft for the last 100 years the accepted operating philosophies and procedures would be very different.
I do know of expats who have progressed through some Asian airlines, but they tend to adopt the local outlook. In my opinion all of the expat 'influencers' in these airlines would be seen as 'oddballs' in their home cultures.
In my experience the expat Captains can improve safety on their individual flights but ultimately can not influence corporate safety.
The large salaries tend to be in places that are unpleasant to live in. If anybody thinks the Chinese are paying for expertise, that is delusional. Those that succeed their are those that are able to accept and adapt to the way they operate. Anybody who tries to do things in a Western way will not get online.
Bottom line: Western pilots can improve safety on a handful of flights but influencing the locals, convincing them they need to change, really? Give me some examples.
Is Asian aviation better off with or without influences that may modify and improve these factors?
The Koreans were forced into hiring expats as a result of their accident record. However reading posts on all the Korean carriers you know that fundamentally the local culture wins through.
It is unfortunate for Asia that aviation is constructed around western attitudes and outlooks with an assumption that individuals take responsibility for their actions and are capable of independent thought. Aviation has progressed through admitting we made mistakes, did not get it right, and made changes accordingly.
How do you get a culture to change where: 'the leaders' are the only ones who can make decisions, and to change anything would be an admission that they dot it 'wrong' and face has been lost?
I would suggest that had Asia been the prime manufacturers of Aircraft for the last 100 years the accepted operating philosophies and procedures would be very different.
I do know of expats who have progressed through some Asian airlines, but they tend to adopt the local outlook. In my opinion all of the expat 'influencers' in these airlines would be seen as 'oddballs' in their home cultures.
In my experience the expat Captains can improve safety on their individual flights but ultimately can not influence corporate safety.
The large salaries tend to be in places that are unpleasant to live in. If anybody thinks the Chinese are paying for expertise, that is delusional. Those that succeed their are those that are able to accept and adapt to the way they operate. Anybody who tries to do things in a Western way will not get online.
Bottom line: Western pilots can improve safety on a handful of flights but influencing the locals, convincing them they need to change, really? Give me some examples.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cleve,
I can agree with much of what you say, but by no means all.
My points of reference are 15 years spent working in Korea, India and China on long-haul fleets.
The direct influence of expats at the ops/mgmt level is as you say not overly significant, but I have seen it achieve some improvements at times.
To see the real influence of expats, though, you have to take a longer view. All of those flights where operational performance was enhanced has an effect, not just directly on that flight but additively over time in that the F/Os (and Capts ... my crews are usually 4-5 pilots in total) you fly with become more adaptable and adapted to western procedures and concepts.
This takes time and does not provide immediate results, but changes are noticeable eventually. For example, when I joined KE in 2000 they had just experienced a spate of bad accidents. There were 3 fatal accidents at KE between the time I screened in 1999 and when I accepted the offer in 2000. The safety culture was very poor. Some change for the better was noticeable by the time I left 5 years later and I believe it has improved there more since then. There have been no fatal accidents since 1999. Now KE still has some ways to go but I believe it has improved and one of the reasons (not the only or greatest) for that improvement has been the overall impact of expats particularly on the F/Os who then become the managers of the future. They still take an Asian approach, but it does get modified and I believe improved by their experiences with expats. That alone, mind you, does not mean that KE is a great place to work now, anymore than it was then. There are still land mines there for the unwary, but I also know good operators who have survived their for closing on 20 years and they are happy enough not to move.
A personal example of the effect of expats in action is an F/O I befriended during my KE days who later became a Capt. and eventually decided to move on from KE and become an expat himself joining the same carrier I'm now working for a number of years later. He's well respected by expats and locals alike and I think he would tell you that his growth as an aviator was much influenced by the expats he worked with in his earlier years.
As to the quality and nature of the expats working in the locales I have frequented, I would have to disagree quite a bit with your assessment. The successful expats I have known were typically also very successful in the western carriers they came from, often as trainers, checkers and managers. Succeeding in the expat world requires both good skill and knowledge as well as an ability to apply both "western" airmanship and "eastern" cultural approaches in a way that results in as safe an operation as can be achieved with the resources at hand. CRM takes on a whole new meaning when you have to apply it across cultures to get the job done.
There are certainly some bad apples and odd ducks in the expat barrel, but I'd be pretty comfortable sitting beside or behind a large majority of the guys who've survived long term in this environment. They seem to have figured out what the real priorities are.
Referring to the book that is the subject of this thread, it is entertaining and I can sympathize with many of the stories presented. That said it reads a tad too far to the side of hyperbole for my taste and definitely has more than a faint odour of the same racism it complains about. To my ear they sound like the stories of a group with very little expat experience (even if not all came from the U.S.) operating a type that was unlikely to have given them much previous international exposure, that were dropped with little assistance into a Chinese carrier that seems to be at the bottom of the barrel in how it treats its pilots. Other groups at other carriers have experienced similar things, but to my knowledge, generally not to the same degree. After 7 years I'm leaving my carrier on good terms and with their assistance in transferring to another Chinese carrier that can offer terms that better match my lifestyle needs.
So, the real truth is that it ain't always all that bad everywhere, and I don't think that either the book or your previous comments reflect that. Those interested in any expat job need to do their homework and avoid relying on any single source of info if they want the whole picture. Goose's book will help only if the wheat gets better sorted from the chaff.
Regards,
ELAC
I can agree with much of what you say, but by no means all.
My points of reference are 15 years spent working in Korea, India and China on long-haul fleets.
The direct influence of expats at the ops/mgmt level is as you say not overly significant, but I have seen it achieve some improvements at times.
To see the real influence of expats, though, you have to take a longer view. All of those flights where operational performance was enhanced has an effect, not just directly on that flight but additively over time in that the F/Os (and Capts ... my crews are usually 4-5 pilots in total) you fly with become more adaptable and adapted to western procedures and concepts.
This takes time and does not provide immediate results, but changes are noticeable eventually. For example, when I joined KE in 2000 they had just experienced a spate of bad accidents. There were 3 fatal accidents at KE between the time I screened in 1999 and when I accepted the offer in 2000. The safety culture was very poor. Some change for the better was noticeable by the time I left 5 years later and I believe it has improved there more since then. There have been no fatal accidents since 1999. Now KE still has some ways to go but I believe it has improved and one of the reasons (not the only or greatest) for that improvement has been the overall impact of expats particularly on the F/Os who then become the managers of the future. They still take an Asian approach, but it does get modified and I believe improved by their experiences with expats. That alone, mind you, does not mean that KE is a great place to work now, anymore than it was then. There are still land mines there for the unwary, but I also know good operators who have survived their for closing on 20 years and they are happy enough not to move.
A personal example of the effect of expats in action is an F/O I befriended during my KE days who later became a Capt. and eventually decided to move on from KE and become an expat himself joining the same carrier I'm now working for a number of years later. He's well respected by expats and locals alike and I think he would tell you that his growth as an aviator was much influenced by the expats he worked with in his earlier years.
As to the quality and nature of the expats working in the locales I have frequented, I would have to disagree quite a bit with your assessment. The successful expats I have known were typically also very successful in the western carriers they came from, often as trainers, checkers and managers. Succeeding in the expat world requires both good skill and knowledge as well as an ability to apply both "western" airmanship and "eastern" cultural approaches in a way that results in as safe an operation as can be achieved with the resources at hand. CRM takes on a whole new meaning when you have to apply it across cultures to get the job done.
There are certainly some bad apples and odd ducks in the expat barrel, but I'd be pretty comfortable sitting beside or behind a large majority of the guys who've survived long term in this environment. They seem to have figured out what the real priorities are.
Referring to the book that is the subject of this thread, it is entertaining and I can sympathize with many of the stories presented. That said it reads a tad too far to the side of hyperbole for my taste and definitely has more than a faint odour of the same racism it complains about. To my ear they sound like the stories of a group with very little expat experience (even if not all came from the U.S.) operating a type that was unlikely to have given them much previous international exposure, that were dropped with little assistance into a Chinese carrier that seems to be at the bottom of the barrel in how it treats its pilots. Other groups at other carriers have experienced similar things, but to my knowledge, generally not to the same degree. After 7 years I'm leaving my carrier on good terms and with their assistance in transferring to another Chinese carrier that can offer terms that better match my lifestyle needs.
So, the real truth is that it ain't always all that bad everywhere, and I don't think that either the book or your previous comments reflect that. Those interested in any expat job need to do their homework and avoid relying on any single source of info if they want the whole picture. Goose's book will help only if the wheat gets better sorted from the chaff.
Regards,
ELAC
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
^^^^^ What ELAC said.
Too bad we can' t put a "like" on a PPruNe post.
This applies to any airline in the world.
Too bad we can' t put a "like" on a PPruNe post.
Those that succeed their are those that are able to accept and adapt to the way they operate.
Last edited by ManaAdaSystem; 16th Aug 2015 at 19:53.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: china
Age: 61
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mana;
What? Are you saying the a pilot at Virgin or Delta has to follow SOP's, even if he doesn't like them? He has to follow stupid rules, because some poorly run management and civil aviation authority make them up. Just to collect a paycheck?
I couldn't agree with you more.
What? Are you saying the a pilot at Virgin or Delta has to follow SOP's, even if he doesn't like them? He has to follow stupid rules, because some poorly run management and civil aviation authority make them up. Just to collect a paycheck?
I couldn't agree with you more.