Missing light aircraft in the NT
Should we be operating 45 year old aircraft ?
The reality is that if the thing has a C of A, an MR, and a AD and SB-driven maintenance system, then .... only CASA and the insurance company can stop us !
The reality is that if the thing has a C of A, an MR, and a AD and SB-driven maintenance system, then .... only CASA and the insurance company can stop us !
Grounding any type will put huge financial strains on operators and manufacturers if it's a new type, and should never be done just because of a crash, unless it's obvious the type is at fault. Boeing is only getting away with its 737 problems because it's huge, the Airvan was made by a tiny company with that being it's flagship, there's almost no comeback from that. In the case of the C210, if it does look like another wing has come loose prematurely it surely should warrant a grounding and inspection at a minimum.
The following 2 users liked this post by Lasiorhinus:
Those who have flown in the tropics building experience will all feel this in the pit of their stomach.
I can admit to scaring the ****e out of myself a few times, luckily got away with it. However I look back and I realise I really had no support with minimal hours. Thrown the keys to an aircraft and off you go. That was the 90s and I consider myself lucky.
You just have to look back to possibly one of the most famous single engine, no weather radar, 365 days a year paper run to see it does work. No I didn’t do it but had the utmost respect for those that did. I don’t recall any wings clapping, ok a few off piste no petrol landings… I don’t know but I’d imagine these guys had support and certainly some experience under their belt before heading off.
Gove to Katherine in a VFR 210 in the wet is always going to be a challenge, one would really want a bit of experience under the belt before tasks like this. Then of course the encouragement to just say no, not today. Yes easier said than done.
No I don’t know any facts however just a little speculation from these pages.
Why is the media so quiet? It was remote? Only one passenger? Seriously back in the day any NT incident got a good splashing in the press.
RIP young fella.
I can admit to scaring the ****e out of myself a few times, luckily got away with it. However I look back and I realise I really had no support with minimal hours. Thrown the keys to an aircraft and off you go. That was the 90s and I consider myself lucky.
You just have to look back to possibly one of the most famous single engine, no weather radar, 365 days a year paper run to see it does work. No I didn’t do it but had the utmost respect for those that did. I don’t recall any wings clapping, ok a few off piste no petrol landings… I don’t know but I’d imagine these guys had support and certainly some experience under their belt before heading off.
Gove to Katherine in a VFR 210 in the wet is always going to be a challenge, one would really want a bit of experience under the belt before tasks like this. Then of course the encouragement to just say no, not today. Yes easier said than done.
No I don’t know any facts however just a little speculation from these pages.
Why is the media so quiet? It was remote? Only one passenger? Seriously back in the day any NT incident got a good splashing in the press.
RIP young fella.
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Indeed. I did provide some detail on operator, pilot and the school they trained at earlier but the mods have hidden it. Unsure what can be posted, if not the details 🤷♂️
Moderator
Let's keep ID details out of it until the media has the relevant info from the investigation authorities. Just normal courtesy to those who are going to be rather upset by the details ....
The following 2 users liked this post by john_tullamarine:
A more relevant factor would be the level of support the pilot had to decide NOT to fly.
Having a more experienced pilot that you can simply phone and get some advice when it's marginal might make the difference. They don't even have to be related to the company you work in, always good to network and ask questions if unsure. Although companies might not like the side effects of pilots with strong social networks, usually leads to united fronts on what they want from pay and conditions as well, which is why its rare.
The following 2 users liked this post by 43Inches:
The best mentoring I received was through the Aviation Safety Digest, free of charge and delivered each and every month and read from cover to cover. That was mid 1960's and the frequency of VFR into IMC accidents was alarming at that time. The digest hammered home the subject and other high incidence prangs.
Probably the only mistake I didn't make in my aviation progression was that and I thank the DCA and the Digest for making the effort.
Probably the only mistake I didn't make in my aviation progression was that and I thank the DCA and the Digest for making the effort.
The following 9 users liked this post by deja vu:
deja vu, Spot on.! The good old Safety Digest was the educational vehicle of choice to devour and note well what other people did to harm themselves and others. Easy to see and or say “that was a silly thing to do” I so easily could have done that.
Or in some cases be reminded of what you did but shouldn’t have done, but got away with it, when others didn’t.
One learns by doing, but the SD education taught you by the doings, wrongly, of others.
Or in some cases be reminded of what you did but shouldn’t have done, but got away with it, when others didn’t.
One learns by doing, but the SD education taught you by the doings, wrongly, of others.
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The complete lack of respect I see from some on this forum and from some in the industry in general, especially in situations such as these, not only for the families and friends of the deceased, but for the work colleagues alike, is quite honestly astounding.
Many, many people are hurting. Real people read the words you post here, including the family and friends of those affected. Before you post anything, have a good hard think about how your words may affect those who’ve had their whole world turned upside down
Many, many people are hurting. Real people read the words you post here, including the family and friends of those affected. Before you post anything, have a good hard think about how your words may affect those who’ve had their whole world turned upside down
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As per JTs point that the certification standard of Va needs to be understood, the 210’s always tricky with Va as one of the few aircraft I can recall which specify Va as a function of aircraft weight. From distant and fuzzy memory it ranges between 95-115KIAS…. Happy to be corrected on the numbers.
Earlier, someone asked what I thought might replace the 210 after I had voiced the observation of its lengthy teeth. And, I have no idea but surely we can do better.
The issue is not a 40 year old privately used 210 with a couple of thousand gentle hours. Instead, the worry are those with 12,000+ hours of hard charter in the top end. just because they’re cheap to buy and operate is not a valid reason.
Separately, is it only in Oz that 210s have a record of peeling wings? I’ve not heard of it anywhere else.
Earlier, someone asked what I thought might replace the 210 after I had voiced the observation of its lengthy teeth. And, I have no idea but surely we can do better.
The issue is not a 40 year old privately used 210 with a couple of thousand gentle hours. Instead, the worry are those with 12,000+ hours of hard charter in the top end. just because they’re cheap to buy and operate is not a valid reason.
Separately, is it only in Oz that 210s have a record of peeling wings? I’ve not heard of it anywhere else.
Here’s one from the US. A businessman, his wife and two teenage children on their way back from Disneyworld for spring break, hit some weather and the wings peeled off. Very sad.
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/th...id-air.548488/
and another one:
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?d...a-6f968a6a1733
After the Aussie 2019 event, this is what happened in Australia:
”Following the ATSB's investigation 499 Cessna-210 operators reported corrosion, while 68 carry‑through structures were removed from service.”
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/th...id-air.548488/
and another one:
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?d...a-6f968a6a1733
After the Aussie 2019 event, this is what happened in Australia:
”Following the ATSB's investigation 499 Cessna-210 operators reported corrosion, while 68 carry‑through structures were removed from service.”
Last edited by Squawk7700; 28th Dec 2022 at 20:49.
Yes: Va needs to be understood. Va is not the number below which it is 'safe to fly turbulence'.
As (I think) JT implied: Vo is the more important number to understand.
As (I think) JT implied: Vo is the more important number to understand.
Moderator
Va as one of the few aircraft I can recall which specify Va as a function of aircraft weight.
Actually, not quite correct.
Va probably is the most misunderstood parameter in the line pilot world. The basis of Va is control surface and related stuff strength. At the minimum value which the OEM may elect to use for design, the stall line will intersect with the limit load factor for the aircraft's design. If the OEM chooses a higher speed for Va the stall will be rather somewhat above the limit load factor and the risks of significant structural problems (of the sudden kind) become a tad worrying.
There are useful Va descriptions in PPRuNe (see posts by folks such as zzuf and djpil - both of these guys I know well and they know their stuff). Another, reasonably simplified story which you might find useful, is given in a thread at Bob Tait's theory website via the following link -
Bob Tait's Aviation Theory School - Maneuvering Speed with weight - Bob Tait's Aviation Theory School Forums
Eventually, the Vo limitation will overtake Va for pilot thinking and much of the problem associated with Va misinterpretation and misunderstanding will fade into the sunset. The main thing is to disabuse yourself of the idea that Va is where you can do heroic things with the stick ....
The main worry with old aircraft, especially in the GA environment where things go on without much oversight, relates to structural fatigue. This is a microscopic metal deterioration which leads to an eventual situation where the tin bits can fail during quite sedate flying, much to the short-lived surprise of the pilot at the time. One of the reasons for structural life limited restrictions and SSIP programs.
Actually, not quite correct.
Va probably is the most misunderstood parameter in the line pilot world. The basis of Va is control surface and related stuff strength. At the minimum value which the OEM may elect to use for design, the stall line will intersect with the limit load factor for the aircraft's design. If the OEM chooses a higher speed for Va the stall will be rather somewhat above the limit load factor and the risks of significant structural problems (of the sudden kind) become a tad worrying.
There are useful Va descriptions in PPRuNe (see posts by folks such as zzuf and djpil - both of these guys I know well and they know their stuff). Another, reasonably simplified story which you might find useful, is given in a thread at Bob Tait's theory website via the following link -
Bob Tait's Aviation Theory School - Maneuvering Speed with weight - Bob Tait's Aviation Theory School Forums
Eventually, the Vo limitation will overtake Va for pilot thinking and much of the problem associated with Va misinterpretation and misunderstanding will fade into the sunset. The main thing is to disabuse yourself of the idea that Va is where you can do heroic things with the stick ....
The main worry with old aircraft, especially in the GA environment where things go on without much oversight, relates to structural fatigue. This is a microscopic metal deterioration which leads to an eventual situation where the tin bits can fail during quite sedate flying, much to the short-lived surprise of the pilot at the time. One of the reasons for structural life limited restrictions and SSIP programs.
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There are a number of operators that could have been going that route. Gove based operators are a plenty, operators that fly in and out of Katherine are numerous as well. Yes, KA is one of them, but lets keep conjecture out of it until information becomes public.
No disrespect to anyone involved, but many know the operator. We know the type and the pilot was trained at a place where I briefly worked in a relevant role, though not when this pilot was there. That said I won't post anything.
I don't know if this is related but one thing that really surprised me, at this and other schools, was the general lack of weather awareness among instructors. Most were very surprised when it was suggested that, just because they were IFR didn't mean they should go cloud punching. Most had not considered the concept of embedded TS (most aircraft did not have weather radars) nor really considered the possibility of turb leading to in-flight break-up. There was a plethora of investigation reports to demonstrate the point.
Mentoring of instructors is just as important as mentoring junior line pilots.
I don't know if this is related but one thing that really surprised me, at this and other schools, was the general lack of weather awareness among instructors. Most were very surprised when it was suggested that, just because they were IFR didn't mean they should go cloud punching. Most had not considered the concept of embedded TS (most aircraft did not have weather radars) nor really considered the possibility of turb leading to in-flight break-up. There was a plethora of investigation reports to demonstrate the point.
Mentoring of instructors is just as important as mentoring junior line pilots.
Last edited by Trojan1981; 28th Dec 2022 at 22:43.