US testing the concept of single pilot C130 and KC46 assisted by a lone loady
That’s something of an arrogant suggestion I believe, that being rotary puts you ahead of ME pilots in a Top Gun ‘who’s the best pilot’ style of Willy-waving. Of the non-FJ streamed pilots choice had as much to do with it as aptitude, on my BFT students could request an early streaming to rotary after only some 50 hours, long before they’d demonstrated any brilliance in aircraft handling to set them above the mere ME potential also-rans.
Many ME pilots came from more esteemed backgrounds, such as FJ pilots with medical issues (lost bang seat cat for example) or in my own case I was re-streamed from FJ and chose comfy beds over sleeping bags, I don’t believe that put me at the back of a metaphorical queue behind those sky-gods streamed straight from BFT.
I suspect the issue is more that handling a large complex aircraft with multiple engines and systems as well as potentially a large number of pax is seen by those who have flown them as more in need of a bigger crew than a simpler type, even if the latter
might be a bit trickier to actually handle.
Many ME pilots came from more esteemed backgrounds, such as FJ pilots with medical issues (lost bang seat cat for example) or in my own case I was re-streamed from FJ and chose comfy beds over sleeping bags, I don’t believe that put me at the back of a metaphorical queue behind those sky-gods streamed straight from BFT.
I suspect the issue is more that handling a large complex aircraft with multiple engines and systems as well as potentially a large number of pax is seen by those who have flown them as more in need of a bigger crew than a simpler type, even if the latter
might be a bit trickier to actually handle.
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Surely with the KC series the boom operator would be better off being trained to fly the aircraft, as they already 'fly' the boom.
That’s something of an arrogant suggestion I believe, that being rotary puts you ahead of ME pilots in a Top Gun ‘who’s the best pilot’ style of Willy-waving. Of the non-FJ streamed pilots choice had as much to do with it as aptitude, on my BFT students could request an early streaming to rotary after only some 50 hours, long before they’d demonstrated any brilliance in aircraft handling to set them above the mere ME potential also-rans.
Many ME pilots came from more esteemed backgrounds, such as FJ pilots with medical issues (lost bang seat cat for example) or in my own case I was re-streamed from FJ and chose comfy beds over sleeping bags, I don’t believe that put me at the back of a metaphorical queue behind those sky-gods streamed straight from BFT.
I suspect the issue is more that handling a large complex aircraft with multiple engines and systems as well as potentially a large number of pax is seen by those who have flown them as more in need of a bigger crew than a simpler type, even if the latter might be a bit trickier to actually handle.
Many ME pilots came from more esteemed backgrounds, such as FJ pilots with medical issues (lost bang seat cat for example) or in my own case I was re-streamed from FJ and chose comfy beds over sleeping bags, I don’t believe that put me at the back of a metaphorical queue behind those sky-gods streamed straight from BFT.
I suspect the issue is more that handling a large complex aircraft with multiple engines and systems as well as potentially a large number of pax is seen by those who have flown them as more in need of a bigger crew than a simpler type, even if the latter might be a bit trickier to actually handle.
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I knew someone who did. Passed all the cranwell tests too. I tried to tell him that's not what the RAF wanted, but he had his heart set on the A330
Ah yes....the age. old rank structuring of pilots by the aircraft they fly!
One thing about it when FJ drivers do look up to Helicopter Pilots and show their respect and appreciation is when the FJ Pilot is on the Hoist looking up at the helicopter pulling him out of some unfriendly neighborhood.....no question then on what the pecking order really is.
One thing about it when FJ drivers do look up to Helicopter Pilots and show their respect and appreciation is when the FJ Pilot is on the Hoist looking up at the helicopter pulling him out of some unfriendly neighborhood.....no question then on what the pecking order really is.
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Really?
You should try it sometime and then you would realize the amount of gross understatement you just used!
Can we all agree that we are all on the same team here and that each type of aircraft and crew have valuable roles to play each with its varying difficulties and contributions to the successful completion of the over all mission of our services?
Banter is a way of life but we should remember we are on the same league although perhaps on different teams.
You should try it sometime and then you would realize the amount of gross understatement you just used!
Can we all agree that we are all on the same team here and that each type of aircraft and crew have valuable roles to play each with its varying difficulties and contributions to the successful completion of the over all mission of our services?
Banter is a way of life but we should remember we are on the same league although perhaps on different teams.
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There's a commissioned Loady who went one better - on a STANEVAL trip, he briefed the sortie, was put in the RHS from where he flew/operated the entire task and handled simulated a/c emergencies. He was awarded a D Cat - as a pilot; RAF was then obliged to give him the full formal wings course.
An ALM given pilot wings on the basis of one sortie...? I smell utter bulls**t
Perhaps, Lockstock, you need to re-read the quote: he was not "given pilot wings on the basis of one sortie" as you write, he was categorised as a D Cat pilot, but was not able to carry out those duties until he had been through the BFT/ RW/ OCU courses and then been awarded his wings. Any BS you can smell is local; the pilot continued to practise his skills after leaving the RAF as a HEMS operator then as an instructor in the civ world.
Quite how you get from STANEVAL recognising the exceptional qualities of one crewman to there being something wrong and dangerous with that fleet is not clear to me.
Quite how you get from STANEVAL recognising the exceptional qualities of one crewman to there being something wrong and dangerous with that fleet is not clear to me.
Perhaps Thud and Blunder your embellished story may have been clouded with time. He may have been categorised as a 'pilots assistant' but if you say he was recognised by the RAF as a pilot, without having undergone any training and on the basis of one sortie then I think that's where your fairytale falls down. Never mind, it's a good dit, which is what this forum is all about these days 
When I was on Doms the non-pilots didn't get PA status without undergoing an approved course administered by ME Stds. Even then, very few could actually 'fly' the a/c but were taught to use a coupled autopilot ILS approach to 200ft with 'Approach Flap' followed by an arrival and a likely barrier engagement.
Last edited by ExAscoteer2; 18th Mar 2023 at 17:58.
OK Lockstock, there's nothing on the forum that requires you to believe anything you read here. Just because something that wouldn't have happened in the AT fleet actually occurred in the rotary world (a crewman, or loadmaster, being assessed as worthy of a pilot D Cat) which led directly to that crewman being sent for the full pilot's course to confirm the STANEVAL assessment - none of this requires your belief to be true. That the officer known as D*** M***** was given that Cat by P*** C*****h****, which was followed by DM being given the pilot's course and receiving his wings, is a matter of record and does not require you to understand how such a thing could have happened. Go blissfully into your world of fairy tales and dits and don't let actual history trouble you.
ExA - in the Puma world, particularly in the 70s and early 80s, single-pilot Pumas frequently had the crewman operate in the LHS. Sqn QHIs would give training to crewmen to prepare them for the unlikely eventuality that they might have to land the beast. DM was identified as being exceptionally skilled, hence the prep for and conduct of the aforementioned STANEVAL trip. There was a world of difference between the rotary world's integration of crewmen into the cockpit and that of the AT fleet. Pre-P2 in the late 1980s, the AAC had a similar policy of training observers and air gunners (ie ATGM operators) in the basics of getting the aircraft down in the event of pilot incapacitation.
ExA - in the Puma world, particularly in the 70s and early 80s, single-pilot Pumas frequently had the crewman operate in the LHS. Sqn QHIs would give training to crewmen to prepare them for the unlikely eventuality that they might have to land the beast. DM was identified as being exceptionally skilled, hence the prep for and conduct of the aforementioned STANEVAL trip. There was a world of difference between the rotary world's integration of crewmen into the cockpit and that of the AT fleet. Pre-P2 in the late 1980s, the AAC had a similar policy of training observers and air gunners (ie ATGM operators) in the basics of getting the aircraft down in the event of pilot incapacitation.
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Oh THUD AND BLUNDER, some strange inconsistencies in your fairytale story... `you initially said that "He was awarded a D Cat - as a pilot".. yet you are now backtracking and saying he was "assessed as worthy of a D Cat". Somewhat of a difference, maybe you are not experienced enough to understand. Your story is subtly embellished enough to be either imaginary or utter bull.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
I'm with Thud and Blunder on this, although I have to admit not knowing the people concerned. See my post #11 regarding crewman's ability.
He was awarded a D Cat - but not as a crewman, as a pilot. The second quote, for which you unsubtly changed the context, related to something that would probably never happened in the AT world (the full quote being: "Just because something that wouldn't have happened in the AT fleet actually occurred in the rotary world (a crewman, or loadmaster, being assessed as worthy of a pilot D Cat"). No backtracking, no inconsistency, certainly no embellishment - just as I wrote it.
I get it - you have difficulty understanding something that would not have happened in your particular slice of RAF life; I have enough experience to comprehend that and much more. I have no need to accuse you of being over-imaginative, prone to embellishment or even a bull-****ter. That you choose to do so to others is entirely down to you.
I get it - you have difficulty understanding something that would not have happened in your particular slice of RAF life; I have enough experience to comprehend that and much more. I have no need to accuse you of being over-imaginative, prone to embellishment or even a bull-****ter. That you choose to do so to others is entirely down to you.
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No, I have not unsubtly changed the context; go back and read your words which I have quoted - " He was awarded a D Cat - as a pilot".. which you keep changing to 'he was assessed as worthy of a pilot D cat". If you can't back up your original comments then stop backtracking..
Any fleet which awards an ALM a pilot category - not Pilots Assistant - to operate as a pilot without undergoing training under the supervision of a QFI/QHI with emergency handling, simulator sorties, take-off and landing practice, on the basis of one sortie is, in my opinion unprofessional, bordering dangerous and in breach of regulations.
Any fleet which awards an ALM a pilot category - not Pilots Assistant - to operate as a pilot without undergoing training under the supervision of a QFI/QHI with emergency handling, simulator sorties, take-off and landing practice, on the basis of one sortie is, in my opinion unprofessional, bordering dangerous and in breach of regulations.