AUKUS
Noted on NZ visits - more of an observation that they won't be shifting their position any time soon.
This really is a long term game changer... as your MP above observes.
Collins had a range of ~9,000nm snorting - just 400nm submerged.
Nuclear boats... how much food can you carry?
This really is a long term game changer... as your MP above observes.
Collins had a range of ~9,000nm snorting - just 400nm submerged.
Nuclear boats... how much food can you carry?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
Tartare,
The differences between different versions of TLAM are somewhat more complex. Though the USN retired their TLAM-N in 2013 they are, reportedly, working on a replacement.
https://www.armscontrolwonk.com/arch...retire-tlam-n/
https://fas.org/blogs/security/2013/03/tomahawk/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidha...ed-a-bad-idea/
The differences between different versions of TLAM are somewhat more complex. Though the USN retired their TLAM-N in 2013 they are, reportedly, working on a replacement.
https://www.armscontrolwonk.com/arch...retire-tlam-n/
https://fas.org/blogs/security/2013/03/tomahawk/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidha...ed-a-bad-idea/
But Australia has created a groundswell of resentment by sending the' 501's citizens to NZ .
If Australia wants to pay billions in defence to keep China’s expansion under control then NZ reaction is “ Good on Ya Mate”
What goes around comes around when you do the dirty on your neighbour
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The Canberra government is seen as being a Trump like right wing group climate change deniers - a very unpopular stance in NZ.
But Australia has created a groundswell of resentment by sending the' 501's citizens to NZ .
If Australia wants to pay billions in defence to keep China’s expansion under control then NZ reaction is “ Good on Ya Mate”
What goes around comes around when you do the dirty on your neighbour
But Australia has created a groundswell of resentment by sending the' 501's citizens to NZ .
If Australia wants to pay billions in defence to keep China’s expansion under control then NZ reaction is “ Good on Ya Mate”
What goes around comes around when you do the dirty on your neighbour
You guys should know what we think of you.
But Australia takes its strategic position in the world much more seriously than NZ.
Thats just an observable fact.
You can act as a small nation of no great importance in the South Pacific.
Hence giving up on your airforce.
Australia can’t.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...submarine-pact
…..France’s foreign minister criticised the deal, which heralds the end of a $90bn deal that Australia made with the French company Naval Group in 2016 to replace its ageing Collins class submarine fleet. France accused Australia of “going against the letter and the spirit” of the deal.
“The American choice to push aside a European ally and partner like France from a structural partnership with Australia at a time we are facing unprecedented challenges in the Indo-Pacific region … shows a lack of coherence that France can only acknowledge and regret,” said the foreign minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, and the defence minister, Florence Parly, in a joint statement.
On Twitter, France’s former ambassador to the US Gérard Araud went further, saying: “France has just been reminded this bitter truth by the way the US and the UK have stabbed her in the back in Australia. C’est la vie.”
Araud also appeared to question why Australia did not seek nuclear submarines from France. “A nuc powered submarine would have been much easier to France to offer since all its submarines are nuc powered,” he tweeted. “The difficulty was precisely to convert nuc powered into conventional powered ships.”
…..France’s foreign minister criticised the deal, which heralds the end of a $90bn deal that Australia made with the French company Naval Group in 2016 to replace its ageing Collins class submarine fleet. France accused Australia of “going against the letter and the spirit” of the deal.
“The American choice to push aside a European ally and partner like France from a structural partnership with Australia at a time we are facing unprecedented challenges in the Indo-Pacific region … shows a lack of coherence that France can only acknowledge and regret,” said the foreign minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, and the defence minister, Florence Parly, in a joint statement.
On Twitter, France’s former ambassador to the US Gérard Araud went further, saying: “France has just been reminded this bitter truth by the way the US and the UK have stabbed her in the back in Australia. C’est la vie.”
Araud also appeared to question why Australia did not seek nuclear submarines from France. “A nuc powered submarine would have been much easier to France to offer since all its submarines are nuc powered,” he tweeted. “The difficulty was precisely to convert nuc powered into conventional powered ships.”
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No , not dirty on our neighbour.
You guys should know what we think of you.
But Australia takes its strategic position in the world much more seriously than NZ.
Thats just an observable fact.
You can act as a small nation of no great importance in the South Pacific.
Hence giving up on your airforce.
Australia can’t.
You guys should know what we think of you.
But Australia takes its strategic position in the world much more seriously than NZ.
Thats just an observable fact.
You can act as a small nation of no great importance in the South Pacific.
Hence giving up on your airforce.
Australia can’t.
As I said - Good on Ya.
Although we will hold your coat and bag when go and fight.
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...submarine-pact
…..France’s foreign minister criticised the deal, which heralds the end of a $90bn deal that Australia made with the French company Naval Group in 2016 to replace its ageing Collins class submarine fleet. France accused Australia of “going against the letter and the spirit” of the deal.
“The American choice to push aside a European ally and partner like France from a structural partnership with Australia at a time we are facing unprecedented challenges in the Indo-Pacific region … shows a lack of coherence that France can only acknowledge and regret,” said the foreign minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, and the defence minister, Florence Parly, in a joint statement.
On Twitter, France’s former ambassador to the US Gérard Araud went further, saying: “France has just been reminded this bitter truth by the way the US and the UK have stabbed her in the back in Australia. C’est la vie.”
Araud also appeared to question why Australia did not seek nuclear submarines from France. “A nuc powered submarine would have been much easier to France to offer since all its submarines are nuc powered,” he tweeted. “The difficulty was precisely to convert nuc powered into conventional powered ships.”
…..France’s foreign minister criticised the deal, which heralds the end of a $90bn deal that Australia made with the French company Naval Group in 2016 to replace its ageing Collins class submarine fleet. France accused Australia of “going against the letter and the spirit” of the deal.
“The American choice to push aside a European ally and partner like France from a structural partnership with Australia at a time we are facing unprecedented challenges in the Indo-Pacific region … shows a lack of coherence that France can only acknowledge and regret,” said the foreign minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, and the defence minister, Florence Parly, in a joint statement.
On Twitter, France’s former ambassador to the US Gérard Araud went further, saying: “France has just been reminded this bitter truth by the way the US and the UK have stabbed her in the back in Australia. C’est la vie.”
Araud also appeared to question why Australia did not seek nuclear submarines from France. “A nuc powered submarine would have been much easier to France to offer since all its submarines are nuc powered,” he tweeted. “The difficulty was precisely to convert nuc powered into conventional powered ships.”
Like 1914 and 1940 ?
Got to wonder if we went to war on the right side.
French narcissism is breath taking.
The contract was a big mistake from the start.
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One thing to keep in mind is relying on other countries, especially European, to support weapons with spares, etc in time of war.
All it needs is a change in political party in power for even a previously steadfast ally to become unwilling to provide parts for weapons.
We learned a hard lesson in Vietnam about this, from European arms suppliers.
A heavy bit of economic coercion from China could leave us with a very compromised capability at a critical time.
Having said that, the US especially, and UK are much less likely to act in such a way even with a China heavy on them.
All it needs is a change in political party in power for even a previously steadfast ally to become unwilling to provide parts for weapons.
We learned a hard lesson in Vietnam about this, from European arms suppliers.
A heavy bit of economic coercion from China could leave us with a very compromised capability at a critical time.
Having said that, the US especially, and UK are much less likely to act in such a way even with a China heavy on them.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
More on French pique…
https://www.politico.eu/article/fran...ubmarine-deal/
‘Stab in the back’: France slams Australia, US over move to ditch €50B submarine deal
The French government has hit out Australia's decision to tear up a submarine deal with France worth more than €50 billion to instead acquire American-made nuclear-powered submarines.
"It's a stab in the back. We had established a trusting relationship with Australia, and this trust was betrayed," French Foreign Affairs Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said in a Franceinfo interview Thursday morning. Le Drian added he was "angry and very bitter about this break up," adding that he had spoken to his Australian counterpart days ago and received no serious indication of the move……
Le Drian indicated that France would fight the move. “This is not over," he said. "We’re going to need clarifications. We have contracts. The Australians need to tell us how they’re getting out of it. We’re going to need explanation. We have an intergovernmental deal that we signed with great fanfare in 2019, with precise commitments, with clauses, how are they getting out of it? They’re going to have to tell us. So this is not the end of the story."……
https://www.politico.eu/article/fran...ubmarine-deal/
‘Stab in the back’: France slams Australia, US over move to ditch €50B submarine deal
The French government has hit out Australia's decision to tear up a submarine deal with France worth more than €50 billion to instead acquire American-made nuclear-powered submarines.
"It's a stab in the back. We had established a trusting relationship with Australia, and this trust was betrayed," French Foreign Affairs Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said in a Franceinfo interview Thursday morning. Le Drian added he was "angry and very bitter about this break up," adding that he had spoken to his Australian counterpart days ago and received no serious indication of the move……
Le Drian indicated that France would fight the move. “This is not over," he said. "We’re going to need clarifications. We have contracts. The Australians need to tell us how they’re getting out of it. We’re going to need explanation. We have an intergovernmental deal that we signed with great fanfare in 2019, with precise commitments, with clauses, how are they getting out of it? They’re going to have to tell us. So this is not the end of the story."……
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One thing to keep in mind is relying on other countries, especially European, to support weapons with spares, etc in time of war.
All it needs is a change in political party in power for even a previously steadfast ally to become unwilling to provide parts for weapons.
We learned a hard lesson in Vietnam about this, from European arms suppliers.
A heavy bit of economic coercion from China could leave us with a very compromised capability at a critical time.
Having said that, the US especially, and UK are much less likely to act in such a way even with a China heavy on them.
All it needs is a change in political party in power for even a previously steadfast ally to become unwilling to provide parts for weapons.
We learned a hard lesson in Vietnam about this, from European arms suppliers.
A heavy bit of economic coercion from China could leave us with a very compromised capability at a critical time.
Having said that, the US especially, and UK are much less likely to act in such a way even with a China heavy on them.
For that reason alone , I couldn’t understand a deal with the French.
The Yanks always had a problem putting a US combat system in a French sub.
French subs leak like a sieve from an intelligence point of view.
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France is a decent country, but like most it acts in self interest in the final analysis.
There is little sense of kinship between continental Europe and Australia.
However, I feel there is residual sense of kinship between between many in UK and Aus that influences attitudes over pure self interest.
There is little sense of kinship between continental Europe and Australia.
However, I feel there is residual sense of kinship between between many in UK and Aus that influences attitudes over pure self interest.
Seismic stuff and plenty of reverberations still to come. Intrigued to see how it will pan out. French anger was to be expected and I guess this won't do much to help Anglo French relations - although we continue to loyally support them elsewhere eg with heavy lift etc in the Sahel.
Most intriguing to me is what brand of nuclear subs we are talking about here. Hot favourites must be Virginias, in which case it's hard to see what the UK brings to the table beyond getting a few crumbs from said table, eg BAe or Babcocks getting some management or maintenance contracts. Could there be a scenario however where the US isn't actually keen on exporting Virginias but really likes the idea, strategically, of Australia upping its game in the area with nuclear subs. That could just open the door to an Astute-based solution - something HMG would presumably love to see, and it's interesting that the UK is said to have been a prime mover in bringing this whole arrangement about. Very much a long shot, certainly, but...
Most intriguing to me is what brand of nuclear subs we are talking about here. Hot favourites must be Virginias, in which case it's hard to see what the UK brings to the table beyond getting a few crumbs from said table, eg BAe or Babcocks getting some management or maintenance contracts. Could there be a scenario however where the US isn't actually keen on exporting Virginias but really likes the idea, strategically, of Australia upping its game in the area with nuclear subs. That could just open the door to an Astute-based solution - something HMG would presumably love to see, and it's interesting that the UK is said to have been a prime mover in bringing this whole arrangement about. Very much a long shot, certainly, but...
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
I can see the probability that UK will provide the reactors and supply the fuel - and contract to take it back for reprocessing and storage.
The Astute could also be built under licence in Oz - not sure Congress would allow that for the Virginia class for security reasons.
The Astute could also be built under licence in Oz - not sure Congress would allow that for the Virginia class for security reasons.
Last edited by ORAC; 16th Sep 2021 at 10:12.
Seismic stuff and plenty of reverberations still to come. Intrigued to see how it will pan out. French anger was to be expected and I guess this won't do much to help Anglo French relations - although we continue to loyally support them elsewhere eg with heavy lift etc in the Sahel.
Most intriguing to me is what brand of nuclear subs we are talking about here. Hot favourites must be Virginias, in which case it's hard to see what the UK brings to the table beyond getting a few crumbs from said table, eg BAe or Babcocks getting some management or maintenance contracts. Could there be a scenario however where the US isn't actually keen on exporting Virginias but really likes the idea, strategically, of Australia upping its game in the area with nuclear subs. That could just open the door to an Astute-based solution - something HMG would presumably love to see, and it's interesting that the UK is said to have been a prime mover in bringing this whole arrangement about. Very much a long shot, certainly, but...
Most intriguing to me is what brand of nuclear subs we are talking about here. Hot favourites must be Virginias, in which case it's hard to see what the UK brings to the table beyond getting a few crumbs from said table, eg BAe or Babcocks getting some management or maintenance contracts. Could there be a scenario however where the US isn't actually keen on exporting Virginias but really likes the idea, strategically, of Australia upping its game in the area with nuclear subs. That could just open the door to an Astute-based solution - something HMG would presumably love to see, and it's interesting that the UK is said to have been a prime mover in bringing this whole arrangement about. Very much a long shot, certainly, but...
Any UK expertise might well be in helping the Aussies set up the build, support and safety infrastructure needed. It's non-trivial.
I agree with the decision however how many times have we seen bungled purchases by the Govt / DMO? (Collins, Sea-sprite, NH90, French Subs, dare I say F-35's ).
I remember being in Newcastle harbour back in around 1995 ( Nowdays 49% Chinese owned) when the nuclear powered USS John S McCain sailed into the port for a visit, the greenies were all lined up and down the break wall in protest of it being nuclear powered and that the city was going to blow up!
I remember being in Newcastle harbour back in around 1995 ( Nowdays 49% Chinese owned) when the nuclear powered USS John S McCain sailed into the port for a visit, the greenies were all lined up and down the break wall in protest of it being nuclear powered and that the city was going to blow up!
So, a question for our British friends as you wake up and we go to sleep.
I read a lot in this forum about how incompetent, wasteful etc. BAE are in terms of military aircraft, but know nothing about their performance on the Astute class.
Wikipedia talks about early delays, cost overruns etc - par for course on any new military project it seems.
What's the general feeling about the Astute Boats and BAE submarines at present?
Have they reached some sort of early maturity? I see the RN was pretty chuffed with itself in 2012 about besting a Virginia attack boat in exercises.
Having very little knowledge of submarines - I assume the Virginia class would be:
a) too much boat for Australia's needs
b) not likely to be approved for export by Congress - and even if they were - a long queue to wait for the USN to get their full compliment of 30+
But I would feel a bit more confident about buying from GDEB than BAE subs.
Over to those who know more than I do.
I read a lot in this forum about how incompetent, wasteful etc. BAE are in terms of military aircraft, but know nothing about their performance on the Astute class.
Wikipedia talks about early delays, cost overruns etc - par for course on any new military project it seems.
What's the general feeling about the Astute Boats and BAE submarines at present?
Have they reached some sort of early maturity? I see the RN was pretty chuffed with itself in 2012 about besting a Virginia attack boat in exercises.
Having very little knowledge of submarines - I assume the Virginia class would be:
a) too much boat for Australia's needs
b) not likely to be approved for export by Congress - and even if they were - a long queue to wait for the USN to get their full compliment of 30+
But I would feel a bit more confident about buying from GDEB than BAE subs.
Over to those who know more than I do.
Last edited by tartare; 16th Sep 2021 at 11:12.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
https://www.naval-technology.com/fea...est-submarine/
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...us-navy-151446
Then, of course, they could skip a generation…..
https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutto...ubmarine-ssnr/
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...us-navy-151446
Then, of course, they could skip a generation…..
https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutto...ubmarine-ssnr/