Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

AUKUS

Old 16th Sep 2021, 08:00
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: A better place.
Posts: 1,964
Noted on NZ visits - more of an observation that they won't be shifting their position any time soon.
This really is a long term game changer... as your MP above observes.
Collins had a range of ~9,000nm snorting - just 400nm submerged.
Nuclear boats... how much food can you carry?
tartare is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 08:06
  #42 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 12,354
Tartare,

The differences between different versions of TLAM are somewhat more complex. Though the USN retired their TLAM-N in 2013 they are, reportedly, working on a replacement.

https://www.armscontrolwonk.com/arch...retire-tlam-n/

https://fas.org/blogs/security/2013/03/tomahawk/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidha...ed-a-bad-idea/



ORAC is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 08:20
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Farnborough
Posts: 51
Won't this just create an arms race in the Pacific? A self fulfilling prophecy?
munnst is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 08:38
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: the far south
Posts: 498
Smile

Originally Posted by Grumpy retiree View Post
Breathtaking decision but the correct one.
NZ is part of the Five Eyes but has given up on being militarily competitive. They haven’t had fast jets for years.
Silence would be their best response.
The Canberra government is seen as being a Trump like right wing group climate change deniers - a very unpopular stance in NZ.

But Australia has created a groundswell of resentment by sending the' 501's citizens to NZ .

If Australia wants to pay billions in defence to keep China’s expansion under control then NZ reaction is “ Good on Ya Mate”
What goes around comes around when you do the dirty on your neighbour
typerated is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 08:51
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Oz
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by typerated View Post
The Canberra government is seen as being a Trump like right wing group climate change deniers - a very unpopular stance in NZ.

But Australia has created a groundswell of resentment by sending the' 501's citizens to NZ .

If Australia wants to pay billions in defence to keep China’s expansion under control then NZ reaction is “ Good on Ya Mate”
What goes around comes around when you do the dirty on your neighbour
No , not dirty on our neighbour.
You guys should know what we think of you.
But Australia takes its strategic position in the world much more seriously than NZ.
Thats just an observable fact.
You can act as a small nation of no great importance in the South Pacific.
Hence giving up on your airforce.
Australia can’t.
Grumpy retiree is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 08:55
  #46 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 12,354
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...submarine-pact

…..
France’s foreign minister criticised the deal, which heralds the end of a $90bn deal that Australia made with the French company Naval Group in 2016 to replace its ageing Collins class submarine fleet. France accused Australia of “going against the letter and the spirit” of the deal.

“The American choice to push aside a European ally and partner like France from a structural partnership with Australia at a time we are facing unprecedented challenges in the Indo-Pacific region … shows a lack of coherence that France can only acknowledge and regret,” said the foreign minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, and the defence minister, Florence Parly, in a joint statement.

On Twitter, France’s former ambassador to the US Gérard Araud went further, saying: “France has just been reminded this bitter truth by the way the US and the UK have stabbed her in the back in Australia. C’est la vie.”

Araud also appeared to question why Australia did not seek nuclear submarines from France. “A nuc powered submarine would have been much easier to France to offer since all its submarines are nuc powered,” he tweeted. “The difficulty was precisely to convert nuc powered into conventional powered ships.”
ORAC is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 08:59
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: West Woop Woop
Age: 50
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by unmanned_droid View Post
I'm not so sure about partnering with Australia given how they've been treating their population over the past 18 months. The actions get more and more extreme.
Protecting us from decimation by stupidity you mean?
rich34glider is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 08:59
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: the far south
Posts: 498
Smile

Originally Posted by Grumpy retiree View Post
No , not dirty on our neighbour.
You guys should know what we think of you.
But Australia takes its strategic position in the world much more seriously than NZ.
Thats just an observable fact.
You can act as a small nation of no great importance in the South Pacific.
Hence giving up on your airforce.
Australia can’t.
We love that you will protect us for free
As I said - Good on Ya.
Although we will hold your coat and bag when go and fight.

typerated is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 09:01
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Oz
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...submarine-pact

…..
France’s foreign minister criticised the deal, which heralds the end of a $90bn deal that Australia made with the French company Naval Group in 2016 to replace its ageing Collins class submarine fleet. France accused Australia of “going against the letter and the spirit” of the deal.

“The American choice to push aside a European ally and partner like France from a structural partnership with Australia at a time we are facing unprecedented challenges in the Indo-Pacific region … shows a lack of coherence that France can only acknowledge and regret,” said the foreign minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, and the defence minister, Florence Parly, in a joint statement.

On Twitter, France’s former ambassador to the US Gérard Araud went further, saying: “France has just been reminded this bitter truth by the way the US and the UK have stabbed her in the back in Australia. C’est la vie.”

Araud also appeared to question why Australia did not seek nuclear submarines from France. “A nuc powered submarine would have been much easier to France to offer since all its submarines are nuc powered,” he tweeted. “The difficulty was precisely to convert nuc powered into conventional powered ships.”
Stabbed in the back ?
Like 1914 and 1940 ?
Got to wonder if we went to war on the right side.
French narcissism is breath taking.
The contract was a big mistake from the start.
Grumpy retiree is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 09:19
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 919
One thing to keep in mind is relying on other countries, especially European, to support weapons with spares, etc in time of war.
All it needs is a change in political party in power for even a previously steadfast ally to become unwilling to provide parts for weapons.
We learned a hard lesson in Vietnam about this, from European arms suppliers.
A heavy bit of economic coercion from China could leave us with a very compromised capability at a critical time.
Having said that, the US especially, and UK are much less likely to act in such a way even with a China heavy on them.
rjtjrt is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 09:28
  #51 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 12,354
More on French pique…

https://www.politico.eu/article/fran...ubmarine-deal/

‘Stab in the back’: France slams Australia, US over move to ditch €50B submarine deal

The French government has hit out Australia's decision to tear up a submarine deal with France worth more than €50 billion to instead acquire American-made nuclear-powered submarines.

"It's a stab in the back. We had established a trusting relationship with Australia, and this trust was betrayed," French Foreign Affairs Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said in a Franceinfo interview Thursday morning. Le Drian added he was "angry and very bitter about this break up," adding that he had spoken to his Australian counterpart days ago and received no serious indication of the move……

Le Drian indicated that France would fight the move. “This is not over," he said. "We’re going to need clarifications. We have contracts. The Australians need to tell us how they’re getting out of it. We’re going to need explanation. We have an intergovernmental deal that we signed with great fanfare in 2019, with precise commitments, with clauses, how are they getting out of it? They’re going to have to tell us. So this is not the end of the story."……
ORAC is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 09:30
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Oz
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by rjtjrt View Post
One thing to keep in mind is relying on other countries, especially European, to support weapons with spares, etc in time of war.
All it needs is a change in political party in power for even a previously steadfast ally to become unwilling to provide parts for weapons.
We learned a hard lesson in Vietnam about this, from European arms suppliers.
A heavy bit of economic coercion from China could leave us with a very compromised capability at a critical time.
Having said that, the US especially, and UK are much less likely to act in such a way even with a China heavy on them.
Agree.
For that reason alone , I couldn’t understand a deal with the French.
The Yanks always had a problem putting a US combat system in a French sub.
French subs leak like a sieve from an intelligence point of view.
Grumpy retiree is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 09:58
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: A better place.
Posts: 1,964
France.
She who has never backstabbed an ally, shafted a friend or welched on a deal under pressure.
tartare is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 10:26
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 919
France is a decent country, but like most it acts in self interest in the final analysis.
There is little sense of kinship between continental Europe and Australia.
However, I feel there is residual sense of kinship between between many in UK and Aus that influences attitudes over pure self interest.
rjtjrt is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 10:35
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 297
Seismic stuff and plenty of reverberations still to come. Intrigued to see how it will pan out. French anger was to be expected and I guess this won't do much to help Anglo French relations - although we continue to loyally support them elsewhere eg with heavy lift etc in the Sahel.

Most intriguing to me is what brand of nuclear subs we are talking about here. Hot favourites must be Virginias, in which case it's hard to see what the UK brings to the table beyond getting a few crumbs from said table, eg BAe or Babcocks getting some management or maintenance contracts. Could there be a scenario however where the US isn't actually keen on exporting Virginias but really likes the idea, strategically, of Australia upping its game in the area with nuclear subs. That could just open the door to an Astute-based solution - something HMG would presumably love to see, and it's interesting that the UK is said to have been a prime mover in bringing this whole arrangement about. Very much a long shot, certainly, but...
Frostchamber is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 10:46
  #56 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 12,354
I can see the probability that UK will provide the reactors and supply the fuel - and contract to take it back for reprocessing and storage.

The Astute could also be built under licence in Oz - not sure Congress would allow that for the Virginia class for security reasons.

Last edited by ORAC; 16th Sep 2021 at 11:12.
ORAC is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 11:08
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 187
Originally Posted by Frostchamber View Post
Seismic stuff and plenty of reverberations still to come. Intrigued to see how it will pan out. French anger was to be expected and I guess this won't do much to help Anglo French relations - although we continue to loyally support them elsewhere eg with heavy lift etc in the Sahel.

Most intriguing to me is what brand of nuclear subs we are talking about here. Hot favourites must be Virginias, in which case it's hard to see what the UK brings to the table beyond getting a few crumbs from said table, eg BAe or Babcocks getting some management or maintenance contracts. Could there be a scenario however where the US isn't actually keen on exporting Virginias but really likes the idea, strategically, of Australia upping its game in the area with nuclear subs. That could just open the door to an Astute-based solution - something HMG would presumably love to see, and it's interesting that the UK is said to have been a prime mover in bringing this whole arrangement about. Very much a long shot, certainly, but...
Our industrial base struggles to deliver our own boats - let alone anyone else's. While welcome in strategic terms, this is going to pose a real risk to UK capabilities - primarily in manpower terms.

Any UK expertise might well be in helping the Aussies set up the build, support and safety infrastructure needed. It's non-trivial.
Not_a_boffin is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 11:11
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: The wrong timezone
Posts: 251
Originally Posted by belly tank View Post
I agree with the decision however how many times have we seen bungled purchases by the Govt / DMO? (Collins, Sea-sprite, NH90, French Subs, dare I say F-35's ).

I remember being in Newcastle harbour back in around 1995 ( Nowdays 49% Chinese owned) when the nuclear powered USS John S McCain sailed into the port for a visit, the greenies were all lined up and down the break wall in protest of it being nuclear powered and that the city was going to blow up!
It sounds like they need to do a bit more homework. The John S McCain is conventionally powered.
anson harris is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 11:21
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: A better place.
Posts: 1,964
So, a question for our British friends as you wake up and we go to sleep.
I read a lot in this forum about how incompetent, wasteful etc. BAE are in terms of military aircraft, but know nothing about their performance on the Astute class.
Wikipedia talks about early delays, cost overruns etc - par for course on any new military project it seems.
What's the general feeling about the Astute Boats and BAE submarines at present?
Have they reached some sort of early maturity? I see the RN was pretty chuffed with itself in 2012 about besting a Virginia attack boat in exercises.
Having very little knowledge of submarines - I assume the Virginia class would be:
a) too much boat for Australia's needs
b) not likely to be approved for export by Congress - and even if they were - a long queue to wait for the USN to get their full compliment of 30+
But I would feel a bit more confident about buying from GDEB than BAE subs.
Over to those who know more than I do.

Last edited by tartare; 16th Sep 2021 at 12:12.
tartare is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2021, 11:44
  #60 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 12,354
https://www.naval-technology.com/fea...est-submarine/

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...us-navy-151446

Then, of course, they could skip a generation…..

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutto...ubmarine-ssnr/
ORAC is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.