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UK Politics Hamsterwheel Mk III

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel Mk III

Old 13th Oct 2021, 06:39
  #9321 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
No doubt all those who voted for your party of choice and to remain in the EU were intelligent, educated, knowledgeable and politically literate on all subject matter and the people involved and could explain with reasoned debate why they are right and everybody else is wrong, I admire your convictions if this is a correct assumption based on input from yourself and a few others within this and other media outlets since the referendum and elections, and in my experience it also is not born out by reality.
You have totally misunderstood the point I am making and perhaps thereby proving it. All I have suggested is that in general the electorate are not as bright or politically literate as people want to believe. That applies to all sides of the debate. I cited the EU referendum debate as a recent and simple example, no more. I have no party affiliations. I campaigned in an election as an independent and actively rejected approaches to align myself with any party. My opinions are derived from this time.
Stand back and think about it. Most of the public are not that interested in politics in the first place. Those that are, tend to adhere to a particular spectrum of views, do not waiver from them and tune out those views that do not conform with their own. As I said, just sit in a pub and listen to the quality of discussion on current issues, especially around election time. In our system, everyone who wants to, can vote, irrespective of education, intellect or understanding of the issues. It may be democratic but it is vulnerable to manipulation and can throw up some unexpected results. Relying on the “good sense of the people” can be a risky strategy.
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Old 13th Oct 2021, 07:14
  #9322 (permalink)  
 
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It may be democratic but it is vulnerable to manipulation and can throw up some unexpected results. Relying on the “good sense of the people” can be a risky strategy.
What's the alternative?
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Old 13th Oct 2021, 07:28
  #9323 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
What's the alternative?
Only allow men and landholders to vote
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Old 13th Oct 2021, 07:48
  #9324 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
You have totally misunderstood the point I am making and perhaps thereby proving it. All I have suggested is that in general the electorate are not as bright or politically literate as people want to believe. That applies to all sides of the debate. I cited the EU referendum debate as a recent and simple example, no more. I have no party affiliations. I campaigned in an election as an independent and actively rejected approaches to align myself with any party. My opinions are derived from this time.
Stand back and think about it. Most of the public are not that interested in politics in the first place. Those that are, tend to adhere to a particular spectrum of views, do not waiver from them and tune out those views that do not conform with their own. As I said, just sit in a pub and listen to the quality of discussion on current issues, especially around election time. In our system, everyone who wants to, can vote, irrespective of education, intellect or understanding of the issues. It may be democratic but it is vulnerable to manipulation and can throw up some unexpected results. Relying on the “good sense of the people” can be a risky strategy.
As expression involving turkeys and Christmas springs to mind ...
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Old 13th Oct 2021, 08:04
  #9325 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
What's the alternative?
I don’t have one. I just point out the pitfalls. If you remember, this discussion grew out of the assumption that the electorate would be intelligent enough to reject the current Labour Party under Starmer as a viable alternative future government. In fact, all it needs is for enough people to simply swing from the opinion “they couldn’t do better” to “they couldn’t do worse”. It would require no more deeper thought than that. A few more queues. a few more shortages - real or imagined, the right slogan oft repeated, any of these could be enough. Governments stay in power while the electorate is satisfied with their performance and lose power when the popular feeling becomes one of dissatisfaction. It does not even need to be generally held,. just in the right places.
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Old 13th Oct 2021, 08:14
  #9326 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
I don’t have one. I just point out the pitfalls. If you remember, this discussion grew out of the assumption that the electorate would be intelligent enough to reject the current Labour Party under Starmer as a viable alternative future government. In fact, all it needs is for enough people to simply swing from the opinion “they couldn’t do better” to “they couldn’t do worse”. It would require no more deeper thought than that. A few more queues. a few more shortages - real or imagined, the right slogan oft repeated, any of these could be enough. Governments stay in power while the electorate is satisfied with their performance and lose power when the popular feeling becomes one of dissatisfaction. It does not even need to be generally held,. just in the right places.
That just about sums the situation with the UK electorate up. The attitudes are probably reinforced because we only have a two party system, three at a push, where it would take a pretty seismic shift to see the third party being in a position to form a government. Basically, the UK (and the US) electorate doesn't have to be sophisticated, for most people it's a straight red / blue binary choice. In countries where PR is the system the electorate has much more to think about; can you, for instance afford to vote for say a far left party safe in the knowledge that the most likely result is their working in coalition with another party(ies) and as such have some of their worst excesses tempered, while still having influence in government.

Upthread there was an attempt to correlate Brexit voters being the "thick" ones. I don't believe that idea holds water, there are probably as many politically challenged voters on both sides of the old Brexit argument.
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Old 13th Oct 2021, 11:34
  #9327 (permalink)  
 
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ATN - for most people it's a straight red / blue binary choice.
That may well be how it has become, but it ought not to be so ... in a liberal democracy !
I make no apology for 'banging on' about the restrictions imposed by such 'systems'. Theoretically, the principle of 'democracy' is that all things are possible. We (UK electorate) are ham-strung in matters of political choice by location and the machinations of an unelected body. The shorthand complaint is the Tory in Huyton and the Labour voter in Broadstairs, but it goes way beyond that. The very acceptance of the principle of such a thing as a 'safe seat' ought to be anathema in a democracy. Here, however, it is used as a basis for electoral campaigns which are more to do with retaining power than offering the electorate real choice.
The 'system' stinks but offers more advantage to the two major Parties than to the public to which they should be accountable.
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Old 13th Oct 2021, 12:59
  #9328 (permalink)  
 
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I had no interest in politics until I was in a job that required a lot of driving. Radio 4 was the best of a bad lot for passing the time.
Prior to that, I just parroted the marxist stuff that I had been taught by the academics at college.
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Old 14th Oct 2021, 11:50
  #9329 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ancient Observer View Post
I had no interest in politics until I was in a job that required a lot of driving. Radio 4 was the best of a bad lot for passing the time.
Prior to that, I just parroted the marxist stuff that I had been taught by the academics at college.
Based on the assumption (always tricky territory), that postings on a forum have significance for the matter under discussion, could you expand on this ?
Are you blaming your tutors for a lazy political stance ? Are you complaining that you were misled ? Are you saying that driving and R4 combined to open your eyes to a different set of values ?
Your post is, unfortunately, enigmatic.
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Old 14th Oct 2021, 17:15
  #9330 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
................................., this discussion grew out of the assumption that the electorate would be intelligent enough to reject the current Labour Party under Starmer as a viable alternative future government. ...
I wonder why anyone would assume that? The same electorate voted to back BoJo and his bunch of lying chancers with their "Take Control" nonsense. But there you go, they won the day. And now we are in the sunny uplands of the economic miracle that they promised. Peter Brookes has, once again, said it in a picture, with credit to The Times......

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Old 14th Oct 2021, 18:06
  #9331 (permalink)  
 
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ATNotts; it sums up the situation with any electorate. Why do you automatically assume that the British electorate is dumber than any other country's?
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Old 14th Oct 2021, 18:12
  #9332 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LowNSlow View Post
ATNotts; it sums up the situation with any electorate. Why do you automatically assume that the British electorate is dumber than any other country's?
Since the UK electorate has only a binary choice for government one assumes, perhaps incorrectly, they have to think less about who to vote for. Where there is a true democratic system it is surely more likely voters may consider where they place their support as their vote really counts.
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Old 14th Oct 2021, 18:43
  #9333 (permalink)  
 
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They always say, ‘ if you have nothing to add to the conversation, don’t post.’

well I’ve nothing to add but you lot do make an older man happy. IT IS BETTER THAN THE BEST COMEDY PROGRAMME.

please keep it going,
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Old 14th Oct 2021, 18:46
  #9334 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
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I despair.

Myself and a group of 6 others stood as independents in our local city elections last May - which is only a glorified parish council and to me should not be run on a political basis at that level. Whilst out canvassing, I got so much feedback from locals telling me they felt exactly the same, how the council needed shaking up, how they were fed up with decisions being made to appease their Tory masters at county level, how disappointed they were with political infighting between councillors etc etc. But when the public got to the ballot box, they just voted the conservatives straight back in and already, councillors are making decisions based on national policy rather than that that benefits local issues.

Trying not to turn this thread into an Covid rant, but I do find it rather intriguing that so many moan about how useless, ineffectual and untrustworthy our current government is - yet those same people compliantly followed and accepted the daily update coronavirus advice meted out by these very same ‘duplicitous’ individuals without question or thought. Bearing also in mind that the experts they had with them to back them up would require to be singing from the same hymn sheet, otherwise they wouldn’t have been on the same podia.
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Old 14th Oct 2021, 19:43
  #9335 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DON T View Post
They always say, ‘ if you have nothing to add to the conversation, don’t post.’

well I’ve nothing to add but you lot do make an older man happy. IT IS BETTER THAN THE BEST COMEDY PROGRAMME.

please keep it going,
DON T
We are but amateurs when compared with the professionals who are inhabiting West Minster currently, but glad to amuse. Incidentally HIGNFY maybe properly funny on Friday if you would like a proper laugh 🙂
Cheers
Mr Mac
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Old 14th Oct 2021, 19:47
  #9336 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Originally Posted by DON T View Post
They always say, ‘ if you have nothing to add to the conversation, don’t post.’

well I’ve nothing to add but you lot do make an older man happy. IT IS BETTER THAN THE BEST COMEDY PROGRAMME.

please keep it going,
DON T
We are but amateurs when compared with current inhabitants of West Minster, but glad to amuse. May I suggest HIGNFY on Friday for a better laugh at your current masters.
Cheers
Mr Mac
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Old 16th Oct 2021, 06:33
  #9337 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
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I generally agree with Ninethaces' characterisation of the UK electorate, but would like to point out a slightly contradictory position between two recent posts

Most of the public are not that interested in politics in the first place. Those that are, tend to adhere to a particular spectrum of views, do not waiver from them and tune out those views that do not conform with their own.
(I entirely agree)

all it needs is for enough people to simply swing from the opinion “they couldn’t do better” to “they couldn’t do worse”. It would require no more deeper thought than that. A few more queues. a few more shortages - real or imagined, the right slogan oft repeated, any of these could be enough. Governments stay in power while the electorate is satisfied with their performance and lose power when the popular feeling becomes one of dissatisfaction. It does not even need to be generally held,. just in the right places.
My bold. Starting this sentence with "all it needs" belittles the problem. I agree with Ninethace that mostt of the UK electorate are wedded for life to their belief system.

In the math that matters, in England anyway this amounts to...

Tory
Labour
Couldn't give a **** and don't vote.
Others (mathematically irrelevant. when it comes to forming a majority government

In Scotland we have a different set, but enough of that we covered it already.

Ninethace's second quote does not cover the UK electorate as a whole, it only covers the very small part of that ever changes its opinion AKA "the swing voters" and therefore you can never kick this off "all it needs" because the swing vote has to overcome mathematical reality, and currently that is a very, very tough challenge for the party of opposition.

In other words, even if labour was to win the entire swing vote at the next election, it still might not form a majority government. As posted earlier, Labour currently require a potentially all time record breaking swing to gain a majority of one seat.

A minority/coalition labour government is a slightly better possibility, but another political certainty...minority/coalition governments don't get much done and never bring forth radical change. (Although an SNP/labour one could well break up the UK , so I guess there's a wee bit of contradiction on my part )


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Old 16th Oct 2021, 11:13
  #9338 (permalink)  
 
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but another political certainty...minority/coalition governments don't get much done and never bring forth radical change.
Well, well ! I would have to suggest that the 16 year 'reign' of 'Mutti' and its concomitant quality of national governance or the ability of Israel to exist and prosper in antagonistic surroundings might be a counter argument. But, like almost every advocate of 'strong' government, you confuse action with ability. Trump and Bolsonaro ... discuss
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Old 16th Oct 2021, 11:18
  #9339 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Richard Dangle View Post
I generally agree with Ninethaces' characterisation of the UK electorate, but would like to point out a slightly contradictory position between two recent posts



(I entirely agree)



My bold. Starting this sentence with "all it needs" belittles the problem. I agree with Ninethace that mostt of the UK electorate are wedded for life to their belief system.

In the math that matters, in England anyway this amounts to...

Tory
Labour
Couldn't give a **** and don't vote.
Others (mathematically irrelevant. when it comes to forming a majority government

In Scotland we have a different set, but enough of that we covered it already.

Ninethace's second quote does not cover the UK electorate as a whole, it only covers the very small part of that ever changes its opinion AKA "the swing voters" and therefore you can never kick this off "all it needs" because the swing vote has to overcome mathematical reality, and currently that is a very, very tough challenge for the party of opposition.

In other words, even if labour was to win the entire swing vote at the next election, it still might not form a majority government. As posted earlier, Labour currently require a potentially all time record breaking swing to gain a majority of one seat.

A minority/coalition labour government is a slightly better possibility, but another political certainty...minority/coalition governments don't get much done and never bring forth radical change. (Although an SNP/labour one could well break up the UK , so I guess there's a wee bit of contradiction on my part )
I think you underestimate the size of the swing vote, the impact of marginal constituencies and the effect of turnout on the day.
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Old 17th Oct 2021, 01:51
  #9340 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Richard Dangle View Post
I generally agree with Ninethaces' characterisation of the UK electorate, but would like to point out a slightly contradictory position between two recent posts
....
minority/coalition governments don't get much done and never bring forth radical change. (Although an SNP/labour one could well break up the UK , so I guess there's a wee bit of contradiction on my part )
There are countries in Europe that have been lead by such governments for years and decades and have incrementally steered their societies in the right direction, and most noticeably have avoided shooting themselves in the foot. But this is naturally part of a larger picture where people's general education, critical thinking, media literacy and social awareness come into play,
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