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F-35C Accident - USS Carl Vinson

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F-35C Accident - USS Carl Vinson

Old 24th Jan 2022, 19:19
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F-35C Accident - USS Carl Vinson

Landing mishap - pilot ejected safely - 7 sailors injured - 3 required evacuation to shore but now stable..

Pilot Ejects After F-35 Lightning II 'Landing Mishap' on USS Carl Vinson in South China Sea - USNI News
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Old 24th Jan 2022, 21:14
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I will guess - because of the number of injured sailors on deck - sadly - that the cross deck pendant (arrestor wire caught by the F-35C) broke. IT has been said that the F-35C is a 'three wire machine' which may indicate that the number three wire took one too many arrests. The wire would then whip across the deck taking out sailors. Because aircraft not stopping without speed for a 'bolter' the pilot ejects OK and of course the aircraft will be recovered toot de sweet as we know. All above is conjecture though. ASLO: The wire used during an arrest is inspected afterwards every time - that procedure will have been followed - perhaps there was a defect in the cross deck pendant or the arresting gear engine malfunctioned OR it was not set up correctly for an F-35C? "...USS Carl Vinson (CVN 70). The arresting gear is the four cables on the ship’s deck that stop aircraft traveling 150 mph in approximately 320 feet...." https://www.navair.navy.mil/node/3571

IIRC the cross deck pendant is replaced every 100 arrests anyway or when visible damage is perceived.



Last edited by SpazSinbad; 25th Jan 2022 at 03:36. Reason: roller to bolter + xtra guesses + quot + grfx
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 07:24
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The Carl Vinson is fitted with JPALS. I wonder if this was in use?
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 07:52
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What role does JPALS have in F-35C carrier landing approaches today?
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 09:39
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https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-w...143883.article
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 10:02
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JPALS is probably what ensures a '3 Wire'. This seems to be part of what a 'good' carrier landing looks like for grading purposes. It would seem to me, now, which wire you take is less down to skill and more to systems. Perhaps there should be a part of the JPALS code to alter parameters in order to vary which wire is taken such that one particular wire is not used more than the others. I get that there are pros and cons to that suggestion.
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 10:45
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'ORAC' I'm not a FlightGlobal subscriber so I don't see anything not that I think it is relevant. 'unmanned droid' says "JPALS is probably what ensures a '3 Wire'...' No it does not. DELTA FLIGHT PATH with the pilot doing very little except ensuring a good line up is what is involved.
https://www.aerospacetestinginternat...ii-ground.html
"...Test pilots and engineers credited the F-35C’s Delta Flight Path (DFP) technology with significantly reducing pilot workload during the approach to the carrier, increasing safety margins during carrier approaches and reducing touchdown dispersion. “The engineers responsible for the aircraft’s control laws did a phenomenal job designing this aircraft from the pilot’s perspective,” Wilson explains. “The control schemes of the F-35C provide a tool for the below-average ball flyer to compete for top hook.” “My major takeaway was that the F-35C is very good at flying behind the ship,” notes Lt Cdr Ted Dyckman, a VX-23 test pilot at the ITF. “Any deviation that someone gets themselves into, they can correct fairly quickly and accurately. In fact, it’s a three-wire machine,” he added, referring to the optimal arresting wire aboard an aircraft carrier. ..."

F-35C Delta Flight Path IDLC Tailhook 2015 Clemence Brief

__________________________________________

F-35 New Flight Control Software [IDLC Integrated Direct Lift Control]


Last edited by SpazSinbad; 25th Jan 2022 at 11:01. Reason: anotherie viddy
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 11:50
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I think the point being made is that JPALs assists the pilot in taking the 3 wire on just about every single approach. The question being asked is that, if this is true, might the additional wear be such that the frequency of cable replacement be made.
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 13:24
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Originally Posted by ORAC
I think the point being made is that JPALs assists the pilot in taking the 3 wire on just about every single approach. The question being asked is that, if this is true, might the additional wear be such that the frequency of cable replacement be made.
I was under the impression that cables are lifed by age and number of pulls (landings into an individual pendant) and visually checked for gross damage after each use. If you are going to nearly always have 3-wire landings this would not change the pendants' life but the Head Badger might want to shuffle them around to get some wear from the others.

I wonder if this is a late life cable that has received an in limits but off-centerline pull?
N
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 13:37
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Salute!

I gotta go with Spaz.

Over on the F-35 forums one of the "boat" officers( think it was qual flights - Lincoln? been awhile) said that the plane was so accurate that they had to work on the spot on the deck that was repeatedly struck on touchdown.

Good to see the seat working well on that beast and the Bee.

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Old 25th Jan 2022, 13:46
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Originally Posted by SpazSinbad
...USS Carl Vinson (CVN 70). The arresting gear is the four cables on the ship’s deck that stop aircraft traveling 150 mph in approximately 320 feet...." https://www.navair.navy.mil/node/3571
A cable break was my first thought as well. Nasty. I recall the #1 wire being removed from a few of the Nimitz Class carriers some 15 years ago, making them a 3 cable system. I believe the reasoning was the #1 wire was always below glideslope, was less than 10% of arrestments, but with all the care, crewing and maintenance still required. The Fords have only 3. With 3, do they still call the preferred 3 wire the three 3 wire, even though it it is the middle of 3 wires?
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 15:07
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I'm sorry but I disagree that JPALS is not responsible for ensuring a '3-wire' every time.

We know that CVN-70 was the first to receive JPALS, so we at least know the system could have been available and in use:

https://www.navair.navy.mil/news/Nav...-06092020-1200

JPALS as a precision approach and landing system provides the accuracy required to touch down within 20cm:
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...ng-system.html

The news article above mentions the DFP feature in the F-35C, which according to this article:
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...perations.html

Reduces workload for the pilot. On a thread on F-16.net JPALS and MAGIC CARPET are suggested to be the same thing re-branded.

Therefore, the '3-wire every time' is a combination of Pilot training, reduced workload features (DFP/MAGIC CARPET depending on what you're flying) and the introduction of shipboard data linked precision approach and landing systems (JPALS).

I seem to remember JPALS demonstrating fully automatic landings some time ago, I guess a proportion of carrier landings and approaches to a CVN by USN aircraft are now full autoland?

Still, if the wires/pendants are lifed, then , as stated, this shouldn't be an issue.
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 15:33
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Salute!

thnx, Droid, and seems the JPALS might have a mini version that can be used at remote austere bases on deployments. Whether the F-35C delta mode helps, I need a briefing.

Gotta admit, but new avionics and ground support systems are real handy nowadays.

Beats hell outta non-directional beacon we used long ago. You know, ADF. Hell, imagine Spaz flying back to his Oz boat without its TACAN working!

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Old 25th Jan 2022, 16:04
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Gums, from September, post #6374

Future Carrier (Including Costs)

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/navy-league/2021/09/03/raytheons-precision-landing-system-could-be-coming-to-more-allied-ships-expeditionary-airfields-soon/
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 16:55
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The Navy's Seventh Fleet said in a statement the F-35C "had a landing mishap and impacted the flight deck and subsequently fell to the water during routine flight operations."
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 17:02
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Jim Lovell had this amazing story:
Uh well, I'll tell ya, I remember this one time - I'm in a Banshee at night in combat conditions, so there's no running lights on the carrier. It was the Shangri-La, and we were in the Sea of Japan and my radar had jammed, and my homing signal was gone... because somebody in Japan was actually using the same frequency. And so it was - it was leading me away from where I was supposed to be. And I'm lookin' down at a big, black ocean, so I flip on my map light, and then suddenly: zap. Everything shorts out right there in my cockpit. All my instruments are gone. My lights are gone. And I can't even tell now what my altitude is. I know I'm running out of fuel, so I'm thinking about ditching in the ocean. And I, I look down there, and then in the darkness there's this uh, there's this green trail. It's like a long carpet that's just laid out right beneath me. And it was the algae, right? It was that phosphorescent stuff that gets churned up in the wake of a big ship. And it was - it was - it was leading me home. You know? If my cockpit lights hadn't shorted out, there's no way I'd ever been able to see that. So uh, you, uh, never know... what... what events are to transpire to get you home.
Beat that!!
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 18:47
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Very sad to hear of the injured deck crew, here’s to a speedy recovery for all involved.

Gums, is it tempting fate to say that the seat and PFE appear to be working as advertised?
Would be good to know if the pilot got into the raft before rescue.
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 19:12
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Originally Posted by unmanned_droid
I'm sorry but I disagree that JPALS is not responsible for ensuring a '3-wire' every time.

We know that CVN-70 was the first to receive JPALS, so we at least know the system could have been available and in use:

https://www.navair.navy.mil/news/Nav...-06092020-1200

JPALS as a precision approach and landing system provides the accuracy required to touch down within 20cm:
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...ng-system.html

The news article above mentions the DFP feature in the F-35C, which according to this article:
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...perations.html

Reduces workload for the pilot. On a thread on F-16.net JPALS and MAGIC CARPET are suggested to be the same thing re-branded.

Therefore, the '3-wire every time' is a combination of Pilot training, reduced workload features (DFP/MAGIC CARPET depending on what you're flying) and the introduction of shipboard data linked precision approach and landing systems (JPALS).

I seem to remember JPALS demonstrating fully automatic landings some time ago, I guess a proportion of carrier landings and approaches to a CVN by USN aircraft are now full autoland?

Still, if the wires/pendants are lifed, then , as stated, this shouldn't be an issue.
Some interesting comments about the wire which will be addressed in another post. This one selected for comment because of the numerous URLs one of which mentions JPALS & DFP but not in the same breath. "...When the Navy's F-35C Joint Strike Fighter embarks on its first carrier deployment in 2021, it's expected to take with it a pinpoint-accurate landing system that purports to make the terror of night approaches and high sea-state traps all but a thing of the past...." https://www.military.com/daily-news/...ng-system.html

JPALS is used for instrument landings and FINDING the carrier from approx. 200 NM out. However - at the moment - the F-35C pilot uses DFP to fly the VISUAL APPROACH as described in the video. WHEN JPALS is finally certified for the full instrument approach to touchdown/arrest then it will do so in the conditions described OR when the pilot is fatigued during the daytime after a long mission. It is not certified for this but will be at some future time. Yes the robots do it because they are unmanned and they (in the past) used a 'special installation of JPALS'. The pilots in the squadron are not test pilots - they were not using JPALS for a day carrier approach.
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 19:21
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Originally Posted by sandiego89
A cable break was my first thought as well. Nasty. I recall the #1 wire being removed from a few of the Nimitz Class carriers some 15 years ago, making them a 3 cable system. I believe the reasoning was the #1 wire was always below glideslope, was less than 10% of arrestments, but with all the care, crewing and maintenance still required. The Fords have only 3. With 3, do they still call the preferred 3 wire the three 3 wire, even though it it is the middle of 3 wires?
Seems like reasonable reasoning for three wires only on two CVNS (listed at the URL). However these NIMITZ Class CVNs ALL have conventional arrestor gear modified to two differing standards (irrelevant to discussion). The FORD Class will use AAG Advanced Arrestor Gear which is technologically much different to the old gear. Long ago it was envisaged to retrofit AAG to some Nimitz carriers but then decided NO.
Advanced Arresting Gear (AAG) | NAVAIR (navy.mil) & Aircraft Launch and Recovery Systems | General Atomics (ga.com)

ADDITION: I don't recall seeing any other reference online to this so-called 'hit wire'. "...The number two wire, located in the same spot as number three on other carriers, will be the "hit wire."... https://www.thefreelibrary.com/OK+tw...gy.-a090332253

LONG AGO LSOs had a newsletter online which was very informative - then the USN / DoD became very secretive with a lot of good information removed from the internet. Some of it survives in my big PDF but sadly some info refers to the online source which is no longer available even on the WayBack Machine. I don't recall at the time the 3/4 wire diagrams were posted in the newsletter whether the question of nomenclature for a '3 wire' on a three wired only 'boat' was mentioned. However I'll post the diagram....


Last edited by SpazSinbad; 25th Jan 2022 at 20:05. Reason: + grfx/txt + HIT wire
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 19:37
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Originally Posted by gums
Salute! ... Beats hell outta non-directional beacon we used long ago. You know, ADF. Hell, imagine Spaz flying back to his Oz boat without its TACAN working! Gums sends...
Poor old spaz thot TACAN (Mk.1) was magic. Aboard HMAS Melbourne It was the FIRST installation in Australia. Being earlier a Vampire/Sea Venom pilot, ADF was our only beacon ashore. "I knew where I was at all times because I knew where I WASN'T" :-) IF TACAN (also installed at NAS Nowra by the time I got there beginning of 1969) was not working onboard then the magnificent & reliable radars & directors did the trick backed up by our mental NAV one would hope. :-) Then TACAN was not that of later versions and not used for approaches. Night carrier approaches were via CCA to one NM using a SEA VENOM radar mounted up high aft onboard 'the warb/war canoe' then visual via the mirror.

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 25th Jan 2022 at 19:38. Reason: spel
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