BEA; the privilege
Talking of TV , the Courier, benedict Cumbebatch as a amateur spook using his Russian sales contacts as cover and a GRU Colonel as his source . Set in late 50s early 60s has him going to Moscow ona 700 series Viscount oval doors and all. Would that be right for the time
Blindpew , memory come back . Ross Pleasance the very nice senior skipper with QAVSA .
Non handling pilot dir the throttles ...because handler could not vreach them comfortably ...!
When we went on Mr Wu ..G-ASWU T1e [ rescued from Cyprus ] she had cranked over throtts , much easier to reach and operate when flying .
Thus non std. and un-approved on Mr WU we did our own power , if skipper was in agreement . Stood us in good stead when Trident died , and we moved onto self handling throttle fleets .
rgds condor
Non handling pilot dir the throttles ...because handler could not vreach them comfortably ...!
When we went on Mr Wu ..G-ASWU T1e [ rescued from Cyprus ] she had cranked over throtts , much easier to reach and operate when flying .
Thus non std. and un-approved on Mr WU we did our own power , if skipper was in agreement . Stood us in good stead when Trident died , and we moved onto self handling throttle fleets .
rgds condor
Thread Starter
Condor presume Mr Wu was North East, seem to remember visiting a strange cockpit on a trip to Newcastle where my parents had a few businesses?
Mate scraped the tail with a skipper who was comatose and didn’t follow his power commands (mental problems)..surprise the PNF doing the throttles actually lasted so long.
My instructor on the VC10 ..Mike Riley of Concorde/book/blog/paragliding/ aerobatics fame told us a story of jumping on a Trident during base training and flying three circuits doing auto throttle 1 and 3, auto throttle all 3 and manual throttle with his hands on the levers; showed that the procedures mainline had were rubbish especially as Mike is rather short in stature (he writes about his lack of altitude in his blog.).To be honest we didn’t believe him at the time…a BOAC pilot showing us BEA boys how to do it…naive moi.
https://www.flyingthings.org/flying-...9ihxafqjtkhpwe
Mate scraped the tail with a skipper who was comatose and didn’t follow his power commands (mental problems)..surprise the PNF doing the throttles actually lasted so long.
My instructor on the VC10 ..Mike Riley of Concorde/book/blog/paragliding/ aerobatics fame told us a story of jumping on a Trident during base training and flying three circuits doing auto throttle 1 and 3, auto throttle all 3 and manual throttle with his hands on the levers; showed that the procedures mainline had were rubbish especially as Mike is rather short in stature (he writes about his lack of altitude in his blog.).To be honest we didn’t believe him at the time…a BOAC pilot showing us BEA boys how to do it…naive moi.
https://www.flyingthings.org/flying-...9ihxafqjtkhpwe
bp,
Thanks for the link to Mike Riley's blog. That's going to distract me for hours!
Thanks for the link to Mike Riley's blog. That's going to distract me for hours!
Thread Starter
India 4 2 you are welcome, his books are worth reading although I doubt whether you will get a copy of his Concorde stick and rudder book (bit specialised). He changed Concorde procedures as he realised that flying around at 250 knots wasn’t the best idea when minimum drag speed was closer to 400.
I managed to spend some time with Mike and pick his brain which gave some interesting insights to Stan Key, the Heathrow fly by (he had a run in with Walter Mitty character who ordered the prosecution and was one of my early instructors) and some paragliding stories..he worked and flew with the World paragliding champion including doing translation work for the Swiss manufacturer. Clever modest bloke.
I managed to spend some time with Mike and pick his brain which gave some interesting insights to Stan Key, the Heathrow fly by (he had a run in with Walter Mitty character who ordered the prosecution and was one of my early instructors) and some paragliding stories..he worked and flew with the World paragliding champion including doing translation work for the Swiss manufacturer. Clever modest bloke.
BP , thx for the book ref .
Mr Wu came to the mainline T1/2 fleet not the NE T1Es , as she was more similar to our T2s.
I think we could use A/Thrott on manual apps . But memory fade , 'tho somewhere is a reminder that it was a bit more unstable with A/Thrott in .. But not as bad as man flying with A/thrott in on a Boeing .
One landing I do remember , she would not settle onto 28R at LHR , wrestling hard until the skipper gently asked .....
''Young man , do you want power off ? ''
Me , rapidly , and embarrassed .. '' Power off please Sir ''.
I must have been daydreaming as usual .
rgds condor
Mr Wu came to the mainline T1/2 fleet not the NE T1Es , as she was more similar to our T2s.
I think we could use A/Thrott on manual apps . But memory fade , 'tho somewhere is a reminder that it was a bit more unstable with A/Thrott in .. But not as bad as man flying with A/thrott in on a Boeing .
One landing I do remember , she would not settle onto 28R at LHR , wrestling hard until the skipper gently asked .....
''Young man , do you want power off ? ''
Me , rapidly , and embarrassed .. '' Power off please Sir ''.
I must have been daydreaming as usual .
rgds condor
Thread Starter
Happy days ..there was a little skipper ex hamble who would put in a boot of rudder just to mess up a good landing. Never flew the gripper doing my own power although I did do one or two calling the power when it was U/S.
Mr Wu was outside my time but did fly XM which is the one which Cyprus had pranged and stitched the wing back on.
Avoided Boeings but if you wanted an aircraft that was difficult to fly on auto throttle try the DC8..fortunately by that time I had learnt that one flies the attitude for speed and control the ROD with power rather than the point using the flight director and let the auto throttle sort the speed out.
‘I got back into gliding in the 90s and reverted back to BEA days and fixated on the aiming point and controlling the speed with the brakes..a what I unfairly called “old fart” caught me out and I realised how bad habits can resurface in spite of doing hundreds of approaches on raw data.
rgds Alan
Mr Wu was outside my time but did fly XM which is the one which Cyprus had pranged and stitched the wing back on.
Avoided Boeings but if you wanted an aircraft that was difficult to fly on auto throttle try the DC8..fortunately by that time I had learnt that one flies the attitude for speed and control the ROD with power rather than the point using the flight director and let the auto throttle sort the speed out.
‘I got back into gliding in the 90s and reverted back to BEA days and fixated on the aiming point and controlling the speed with the brakes..a what I unfairly called “old fart” caught me out and I realised how bad habits can resurface in spite of doing hundreds of approaches on raw data.
rgds Alan
...fortunately by that time I had learnt that one flies the attitude for speed and control the ROD with power rather than the point using the flight director and let the auto throttle sort the speed out. I got back into gliding in the 90s and reverted back to BEA days and fixated on the aiming point and controlling the speed with the brakes..a what I unfairly called “old fart” caught me out and I realised how bad habits can resurface in spite of doing hundreds of approaches on raw data.
With respect!
Disco , agree V old chesnut , and combination it is.
With hat , coat , and door ready .. and not being a glider guider ..
''''Not applicable to gliders of course.'''''
'Fraid I disagree ... Don't gliders come in with brakes 1/2 out ...Just like a Tristar !
Thus an Anti throttle ?
'Hi 'n Fast , pull brake lever back , sink / slow .
'Lo 'n 'slo , push brake lever forward , rise and accel.
rgds condor .
With hat , coat , and door ready .. and not being a glider guider ..
''''Not applicable to gliders of course.'''''
'Fraid I disagree ... Don't gliders come in with brakes 1/2 out ...Just like a Tristar !
Thus an Anti throttle ?
'Hi 'n Fast , pull brake lever back , sink / slow .
'Lo 'n 'slo , push brake lever forward , rise and accel.
rgds condor .
Regarding this "old chestnut" I have often thought that ever since the dawn of flight training the tyro pilot has always started on single engined aircraft. Thus there was the dogmatic insistance for applying speed with elevator etc. to safely fly any engine out landing, and thus much training time is devoted to this exercise.
However, with power available other options avail themselves! John Farley, in his excellent book, tells an amusing story about his rebelling against this very same dogmatically taught technique whilst he was a student QFI at CFS. Well worth a read!
However, with power available other options avail themselves! John Farley, in his excellent book, tells an amusing story about his rebelling against this very same dogmatically taught technique whilst he was a student QFI at CFS. Well worth a read!
Thread Starter
Got a reference for his book Meikleour please.
Tugged in a Rally at a special french site..landing up slope down wind with lots of power (thermal shock engine shock protection and specific rpm as lycoming), full flaps and slats with variable additional drag using side slip to the flare.
F100 used fixed power with variable air brake.
The 17m Phoebus C had the airbrakes mounted too far back which led to either side slipping or a novel trick of varying the approach speed ten knots below recommended when they became more efficient but accelerating just before flare height.
Problem with the BEA procedure was in turbulence with a sluggish analogue auto throttle on the back side of the drag curve and a power pitch change albeit minor and not being able to feel the movement of the levers it led to an ugly helter skelter approach profile. No wonder we had to be fully stabilised (joke) from 3 grand..
Tugged in a Rally at a special french site..landing up slope down wind with lots of power (thermal shock engine shock protection and specific rpm as lycoming), full flaps and slats with variable additional drag using side slip to the flare.
F100 used fixed power with variable air brake.
The 17m Phoebus C had the airbrakes mounted too far back which led to either side slipping or a novel trick of varying the approach speed ten knots below recommended when they became more efficient but accelerating just before flare height.
Problem with the BEA procedure was in turbulence with a sluggish analogue auto throttle on the back side of the drag curve and a power pitch change albeit minor and not being able to feel the movement of the levers it led to an ugly helter skelter approach profile. No wonder we had to be fully stabilised (joke) from 3 grand..
Meikle.. Agree , John Farley book excellent , have mislaid [ lent out ] mine , signed as well . He's firmly of the 'point and shoot [ with power ] app. technique . Good explanation of it too .
BP , yep fully stabilised from 3000' crazy , but was just for A/land . Mind you sim checks with the need for 6 [?] A/lands got really boring . Got her set up once , then leaning on the 'rams horn' column fell asleep until ..100 above , decide ? call , not sure if skipper was asleep as well , ... But no reply so G/A flown ... Trainer was laughing .
rgds condor .
BP , yep fully stabilised from 3000' crazy , but was just for A/land . Mind you sim checks with the need for 6 [?] A/lands got really boring . Got her set up once , then leaning on the 'rams horn' column fell asleep until ..100 above , decide ? call , not sure if skipper was asleep as well , ... But no reply so G/A flown ... Trainer was laughing .
rgds condor .
Thread Starter
1700 ft for gain programming…3,000ft when I first started especially with Wee Hugh who selected gear down even further out..then land flap on G/S interception (at 3 grand).
180 to the marker when they were carrying out the continuous descent trails was also too difficult for some..Bit of a larf considering cloud break 14 zrh with left had circling 28 in föhn conditions with final turn starting at 500ft and land flap selected latest 400ft which all of us could do on the dc9 (with our own throttles from the RHS).
Worst thing was the long check-lists wedged on the side of the central consul until completed (300ft)…
Thanks for the book.
180 to the marker when they were carrying out the continuous descent trails was also too difficult for some..Bit of a larf considering cloud break 14 zrh with left had circling 28 in föhn conditions with final turn starting at 500ft and land flap selected latest 400ft which all of us could do on the dc9 (with our own throttles from the RHS).
Worst thing was the long check-lists wedged on the side of the central consul until completed (300ft)…
Thanks for the book.
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Plus Two for JF’s book. I must re-read it.
One lovely anecdote that sticks in my mind is his description of returning to Dunsfold from the Paris Air Show in a Harrier. He decided to fly by a nearby cricket match and accidentally shut down the engine!
One lovely anecdote that sticks in my mind is his description of returning to Dunsfold from the Paris Air Show in a Harrier. He decided to fly by a nearby cricket match and accidentally shut down the engine!
Here's a link for John Farley's excellent book: https://amzn.to/42OB5E9
I managed to pick up a signed copy a few years back when I was at the FAST museum at Farnborough. They had some in the shop but I don't see the title in their online shop now. I see that the price on Amazon has gone up a lot since.
The anecdote from his book that stuck in my mind was from when they were training pilots on the first Kestrel/Harriers and there were no twin-sticks available yet. The syllabus included a taxi run (initial take off) down the runway up to 80 KTS, followed by an abort, and a US pilot was not really paying attention during the briefing, thinking that this was something that he could surely master without any additional training. He was seen going down the runway at a speed well over 120 KTS as he had not realised that the type was a very light airframe with a very big engine that demanded a bit more attention than he had been giving it. He was very attentive at subsequent briefings.
Veered a bit off topic here... apologies...
I managed to pick up a signed copy a few years back when I was at the FAST museum at Farnborough. They had some in the shop but I don't see the title in their online shop now. I see that the price on Amazon has gone up a lot since.
The anecdote from his book that stuck in my mind was from when they were training pilots on the first Kestrel/Harriers and there were no twin-sticks available yet. The syllabus included a taxi run (initial take off) down the runway up to 80 KTS, followed by an abort, and a US pilot was not really paying attention during the briefing, thinking that this was something that he could surely master without any additional training. He was seen going down the runway at a speed well over 120 KTS as he had not realised that the type was a very light airframe with a very big engine that demanded a bit more attention than he had been giving it. He was very attentive at subsequent briefings.
Veered a bit off topic here... apologies...
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I always experienced the approach as an inseparable combination of pitch, drag (flaps, spoilers, slips, or props when power is pulled off), power (if available), and ever-changing wind effects - all together creating the approach path (speed and angle) to arrive at the aiming point with just enough energy to flare but not float. At the end, pitch attitude on its own of course becomes very important in the flare.
All in all, a lovely and intuitive energy management exercise! It enabled happy endings whether setting up a low energy off-field landing or a fast and tight circuit after a high speed low pass. I only got confused when, years into flying, I first read of trying to separate the effects of pitch and power (or spoilers) as a "method." Still jams my gears. Somehow I was taught, flew, and then taught others successfully without pulling it apart like that!
Thread Starter
Jhieminga..yes liked that bit…sometimes I make myself a tit too…flew off Bray head a few years ago ..soared for around an hour then getting bored flew the length of the promenade and back only slowly using height then landed near the coffee shop with my wing adjacent to the sea wall.. a middle aged septic came up and I made a facetious comment to what I thought was a stupid question …turned out he had flown attack helicopters and was doing “something” in the American embassy ..turned down a coffee peace offering.
Mike Riley writes about trainees getting a similar overspeed problem in initial training in his stick and rudder book.
KMSS interesting that they stuck some BEA guys in with a Trident panel to follow the flight director…probably the best choice as we were grilled into following it (with consequential reduction of scan).
Liked the handling notes with what more or less amounted to a constant angle approach which I half learnt on the DC9 and refined with a 22 year old CFI mountain flying out of GAP then taught successfully. Basically demonstrating using the patter that you look out at the runway and put the aiming point on a quarter of 22 degrees…45 degrees is half of the angle between the horizon, and bisect that…wish someone had shown me that at hamble as I wouldn’t have failed so many chop tests..three. Remember a technique was putting the runway on a wing rivet.
Trying to drag out the book.
Mike Riley writes about trainees getting a similar overspeed problem in initial training in his stick and rudder book.
KMSS interesting that they stuck some BEA guys in with a Trident panel to follow the flight director…probably the best choice as we were grilled into following it (with consequential reduction of scan).
Liked the handling notes with what more or less amounted to a constant angle approach which I half learnt on the DC9 and refined with a 22 year old CFI mountain flying out of GAP then taught successfully. Basically demonstrating using the patter that you look out at the runway and put the aiming point on a quarter of 22 degrees…45 degrees is half of the angle between the horizon, and bisect that…wish someone had shown me that at hamble as I wouldn’t have failed so many chop tests..three. Remember a technique was putting the runway on a wing rivet.
Trying to drag out the book.
Luvley Trident stuff. NE First Officers really did fly the plane. P1/s. I never understood why NHP did the throttles and HP called for HPRPM as I, personally. had no difficulty in throttle handling and piloting at the same time on any aircraft. I did have trouble landing and one Trainer asked "Where are you looking during the landing ?"
BP; you would have liked all of our Trainers and LIne Captains as all had different ideas and techniques. My fave was Arthur Whitlock, Author of "Behind the Cockpit Door" who , on T/O, hauled back on the ramshorns at about 80kts and held it firmly in his stomach until we lifted off.
First time he did that to me, I was so shocked, FE had to reach over and lift the gear and smacked my hand, very hard, as I reached for the LE when Art asked for flap ! Back in the Vanners, Art gave me a wonderful lecture about the Trident aspect ratio, angles of attacks and pub stuff like that but I never tried to copy the techniique.
BP; you would have liked all of our Trainers and LIne Captains as all had different ideas and techniques. My fave was Arthur Whitlock, Author of "Behind the Cockpit Door" who , on T/O, hauled back on the ramshorns at about 80kts and held it firmly in his stomach until we lifted off.
First time he did that to me, I was so shocked, FE had to reach over and lift the gear and smacked my hand, very hard, as I reached for the LE when Art asked for flap ! Back in the Vanners, Art gave me a wonderful lecture about the Trident aspect ratio, angles of attacks and pub stuff like that but I never tried to copy the techniique.