Becoming a professional pilot, and finding a job

[Capt. Spud]

Thanks once again for all the invaluable information Bert and everybody else. I will definately follow your advice. Getting a degree is vitally important nowadays, so I will make that my number one priority.

Oh by the way, I used to live in Pretoria, near to Garsfontein, in a neighbourhood called Menlo Park. Kinda miss SA, but America is a nice place especially Arizona.

Thanks again, enjoy the flying (in the Caribbean I believe) and don't drink all the Rum, please ;)

Cheers

Craig

[A check]

Larry Ellison told a group of Harvard graduates that they will never make it, they are now at least 5 years behind, everyone else was getting on in the world while they were getting stoned and drunk. Security then removed him to the cheers of the recent graduates. Could you get a job and fly on the profits while living on a students income? It may be a way to build those flying hours. Degrees do not get you ahead, interviewing skills, negotiation skills, sales skills, luck and being in the place and time with the attitude to grasp it, will. That being said I do not have a degree, so take it with a pinch of salt, how it taste's will effect the rest of your life. Good luck in the road you take, but remember it is only the first of many more crossroads.

[All Blacks]

One thing I find amazing is when I travel to all corners of the globe, I hear the same things being told to students no matter where it is. "There is a huge demand for pilots - give us all your money and we will not quite guarantee you a job". Its the same BS everywhere and I always wonder why people keep falling for the same rubbish.

The NZ Govt has just recently undertake an enquiry into all the funding for these so called "aviation degrees" that the universities are running. Apparently last year they funded millions of dollars for over 800 people to get their pilots licences. Amazing since the main employer - Air New Zealand only hired twenty pilots last year :confused:

Massey School of Aviation also puts through pilot after pilot after pilot, using Govt funding and its taken years before someone in the Govt has finally worked out that of the thousands they have funded, only about 100 would have actually got a job in aviation.

Comments on this from anyone.

AB

[Nags Teeth]

:) ;)
Cheers everybody for the help. If anybody has any more I would be grateful the more the better I think.

I know that I am medically fit as I have a CAA class 1 med. for another reason anyway. So I will start looking for schools and go and have a chat to some of them.

Again thanks....:D

[All Blacks]

Nagsteeth

You may like to consider looking at some of the JAR approved schools in OZ or NZ. With the exchange rate being pretty good the savings you get could pay for accomodation, travel etc and still have some left over. Just a thought. Canada is also another good option, they have some great schools there.

AB

[Nags Teeth]

All Blacks

Thaks A B I will look at them too, I quite like the idea of seeing a bit more of the world at the same time sounds good to me.

Cheers..:)

[chris jones]

I currently hold a PPL(A) and intend training for a PPL (H) as soon as I have got to grips with three questions:

Who offers the best training accessible to private individuals ? After a somewhat frustrating time training for PPL (A) (where I came across a number of low-time, low enthusiasm, instructors simply seeking hour building) I am prepared to travel as far as is necessary to train with an experienced, and enthusastic aviator, who can pass on his/her experience

Which a/c is best to train on - given that my ultimate ambition is to be get ratings on several types, and not for example, be restricted to simply R22 ?

Is choice of a/c of secondary importance to the standard of instruction or is it an important decision that affects rate of progression of your flying skill post PPL (H) ?

Any advice to this prospective entrant to the rotary world would be greatly appreciated - if you feel that a response will infringe PPRuNe advertising policy - please e-mail me privately. Regards

[James Roc]

Chris,

As you have posted from Ireland I'm sure you must be seeking training here so I may be able to help.I went through a lot of deliberating as to who to go to for my HPPL and ended up choosing Eirecopter based at Weston in Dublin (016280059).The reasons for this are many fold and of which I won't go into much details here particularly regarding the competition.Paul Noctor who runs the school is a very good instructer and he has some good guys with many hours working for him.They use the Robinson R22 for training which is universally accepted as the most popular trainer for lots of reasons.I don't want to open up a debate here but many people think that if you can fly one of these it will give you a good foundation and the ability with time to fly pretty much anything with rotors with relative ease and safety.There's also a good community spirit at Weston amongst the pilots and I find chatting with them to be very educational regarding flying in general.

Hope this helps...

[Old Man Rotor]

Welcome to Rotary Winged flying.........it will be an enjoying if not frustrating experience......

Whilst I have not yet flown in the UK......it is hard to avoid the sentiment of many of our colleagues here at "Prune"......

It would seem that you MAY be better to travel to other parts of the world to do your basic training.....

Having experience in a few countries........New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, US and Canada......all offer good value for money...with only a small amount of Red Tape.

Each school is only as good as your Instructor[s].......I would get references from as many folk as possible........and check them out by ringing them and chatting about the wonders of what you are about to do.....if they are reluctant to carry on a chat with you when your paying for the call...then move on, as their attitude to personalised instruction will be just the same....

I have found that you can [and you must] choose the school and Instructor that suits you......and not just be allocated an Instructor from the pool.........from my experience, choose the older guy/lady, who may be on the "other end" of his/her career, as they have more to offer than a younger hour builder [not to say there arn't exceptions to this....just generalising].

There are heaps of good quality Instructors in the Industry...........your challenge is to find the one that suits you.

Good luck......

[Helinut]

Old Man Rotor's advice is right on the button, in my opinion. Be wary about committing to a course if you have not had a chance to meet and talk with your instructor.

Never forget you have the ultimate control (in the sense that it is your money). I don't mean be a stroppy git; listen to the advice of your instructor. But do not let the flying school run your training for their benefit.

I very reluctantly agree that you should look to other parts than the UK for your training - our training is being killed by the dead hand of our wonderful regulators.

There is one further thought. You need to look ahead to the time you need to start looking for work (or at least free flying). You are more likely to get a break from an outfit who knows you and where you have spent some money.

Good Luck and just stick at it. If you want it enough, it will happen.

[rotorboy]

Ahh Fellow Irishman<

your post brings very brief memories of the cold, wind and rain of Galway... brrr.. If it is gonna be misrable , I my as well ski....

I think your decision depends on what you want to do with your lic. It is much cheaper to train in the us or overseas. We are taliking thousands of pounds , sorry I mean euros.

If you are looking for good value for thr pound go to (cost of living, traing, exp of instructors) go to NZ several great places to train where you can do it in a reasonable amount of time. (NZ is like a third world country wher they speak english!!)

if you plan on being a professional pilot the us may be the best option. A J1 visa that would let you instruct for a year after you finshed all your ratings.... and build a heap of hours.

Good luck,

RB

Looks like tomorrow is gona be a great powder day for skiing.....
:D :D

[Robino]

Chris,

I have 20 Hrs logged fixed wing from last year(Aerial in Weston) and want to go on to do my PPL H.
I have looked at both Eirecopter at Weston and European Helicopter Academy at Dunboyne, both schools use different machines(R-22, S300CBi)
EHA has full FTO status if you want to go on and do CPL H, whereas Eircopter are just a RTF.
Still havent made my mind up yet on which one to use.
e-mail me if you want any info.

Regards
Robino

[chris jones]

Old Man Rotors advice seems to have hit the nail on the head

<<I have found that you can [and you must] choose the school and Instructor that suits you......and not just be allocated an Instructor from the pool.........from my experience, choose the older guy/lady, who may be on the "other end" of his/her career, as they have more to offer than a younger hour builder [not to say there arn't exceptions to this....just generalising].
There are heaps of good quality Instructors in the Industry...........your challenge is to find the one that suits you>>

Can anyone (by private message) offer specific recommendations as to an instructor based either US or UK who fits Old Man Rotor's description above.

[STANDTO]

Got to ask Nags Teeth - how on earth did you get into your current line of work. I thought it was something Father Ted made up for Eurovision.

[Nags Teeth]

:p Standto.

Just out of interest what do you think I do?:confused:

[Jimbob123]

I am considering the self sponsored route for a CPL/IR and have previously been set on fixed wing flyinging, which I have looked in to quite a lot over the years. However, I have recently been giving thought to a CPL on helicopters and don't know quite as much about this. I am still undecided whether to go the fixed wing or rotary wing career route. Can anyone therefore help answer some of my questions regarding a CPL(H) and careers as a heli pilot.

1. What career opportunities are there for helicopter pilots with the relevant CPL(H) and how do they fair with career opportunities for those with a fixed wing licence?

2. What types of salaries can a helicopter pilot command and thus manage to pay off the loans for training?

3. I am currently thinking of Cabair or OAT as a training school. Are there any others I could be looking at?

4. Does anyone have any particular views or experiences as to the pros and cons of pursuing the rotary wing career route?

5. What can one hope to achieve with a CPL(H)?

Most people I read about or talk to seem fixated on becoming an airline pilot. Granted this would be nice and I wish the very best of luck to those of you who are resolute in achieving this. However, I would be happy with any type of flying as a career and would therefore value any comments any of you have in helping me decide on my career path.

Many thanks.:)

[scroggs]

As there are very few readers of Wannabes who can answer your questions, I shall move this thread to Rotorheads where you should find some of what you want to know.

Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
[email protected]

[TheDream]

I spent 9 months looking at both Rotary and FW. Eventually came down on the side of FW. Basically due to the fact that I could sort my CPL/IR, fATPL out for 30K 'cos of my PPL hours. For the equivalent Rotary it would cost total of 70K.

Check out the advert for Bond Helicopters in Flight, talking about ab-initio sponsored scheme. Also try http://www.plh.co.uk costs a few quid but its worth while when looking at spending a large amount on training.

Thats my 2penneth hope it all goes well.

[kissmysquirrel]

Okay, since the previous post was advertising a service, I would just like to make a quick comment on the downside of this service. If anyone is aiming to be a professional helicopter pilot, then why pay someone else to tell you the information which is out in the public domain already? Spend some time doing some homework. Why pay more per hour flying than someone else on the same course? If people haven't the common sense to work out what is right for them and what isn't, then maybe they aren't bright enough to be in the industry!

[TheDream]

Rather uncalled for.

Just passing on some life experience that I found helpful.
Pitty some people can't accept it as that. If thats a typical example of a rotorhead comment I'll be off back to my FW hole.

[SASless]

Unscientific poll of my friends yielded the following results:

RW.....0

FW.....3

Law Degree or Similar......12

[DBChopper]

OK, kissmysquirrel may have been a tad blunt, but I'm inclined to agree with the sentiment.

Having made the decision to follow the heli-route, so to speak, I gave some consideration as to how to get some independant advice. I won't mention any company names, but after a chat with them I decided that I could do my own homework without paying someone else (who is NOT truly independant, let's be honest) to do the work for me.

Firstly, try joining an excellent organisation called AOPA - they very kindly answered a number of questions for me and pointed me in the right direction. Secondly, go and chat to the people who provide the training. Despite what the consultants may tell you, people who fly helicopters are generally very nice (generally...) and you can make your own mind up about them with the benefit of a few comparisons. I have flown with large and small companies around the SE while building hours and can recommend a few. Send a private message if you're interested, so I don't upset any fragile egos.

Just a word of warning if you choose the heli-route... it's damned addictive!

DBChopper :cool:

[overpitched]

I think the answer to that question is quite easy really. Go and fly a plane and then go and fly a chopper... You'll have your answer!

[kissmysquirrel]

Just telling it like it is.

I happened to be on an instructors course with someone who was using a rip off agency. He was paying £5/hour more than the rest of us for the privilege. Does that seem right? Not to me it doesn't. Isn't learning to fly etc expensive enough.

As DB said, most schools are quite happy to talk to people, especially if it looks like you'll give them your business.

[Whirlybird]

OK, I'll try to answer your questions. Just so you know, I have a CPL(H) and nearly 300 rotary hours, and I'm about to start an instructors course. I also have a PPL(A) and nearly 200 f/w hours. I'm an...er...older-than-average wannabe, hoping for a bit of part time paid flying, and I''ve managed nearly the whole thing without any debts. But I've been around a while and talked to people and learned a bit, so here goes....

1) Career opportunities. With a CPL(H) and low hours, not a lot, at least in the UK. But that probably applies to f/w as well. Until recently you could get a left hand seat on the North Sea, build up your hours, then go for things like the police, SAR etc. 9/11 meant that the dual qualified airline pilots who'd been laid off went back to the North Sea, and the companies there are now asking for at least an IR, which will cost you around £23,000. And I'm not sure if they'll guarantee you a job even then. Most people are getting 300 rotary hours and an FI rating, and then...? See what happens I think.

2) Salaries. There are people here who know a lot more than I do. But one thing is certain - no helo flying pays as well as the airlines. I think First Officers on the North Sea are getting around £30,000, if you can get there. Instructing pays better - around £40/hr, but you tend to do less hours than in f/w. Anything else I don't know.

3) Training Schools. Ask around when you start, and keep asking. I have no connection with PLH Associates, and I've heard some good things about them from people who've used them, but it will cost you and I don't know if it's worth it - you can find out most of the info yourself.

4) Pros and cons of helos. Only one big pro - helicopter flying is totally wonderful, tremendous fun, ridiculously addictive, and...I love it. Apart from that it pays less, has no equivalent of nice comfortable well paid airline flying, jobs tend to be hard and dirty and uncomfortable and dangerous. In fact there's nothing in its favour...unless you love helicopter flying. Try it and see. If you do, that's what you'll go for. If you don't, forget the whole idea and have a nice comfortable airline career.

5) Achieve with a CPL(H)? I think I've answered that above. Well...total bankruptcy perhaps??? :D

I hope some of that helps. Hopefully you'll get some of the more experienced people answering you as well as bickering among themselves - you never know; miracles happen even on Rotorheads. :D

[Devil 49]

UNderstand, this is all from a Yanks perspective...

>1. What career opportunities are there for helicopter pilots with the relevant CPL(H) and how do they fair with career opportunities for those with a fixed wing licence?

I don't drive airplanes, but my observation is it's harder to get to an employable level of experience in helos. Once you're a "journeyman" helo pilot and widely employable, the jobs open up-but you're essentially topped out, salarywise. A few go on to specialist skills-longline, ag, etc.-and make decent money, but not comparable to flag carrier airline pay.

2. What types of salaries can a helicopter pilot command and thus manage to pay off the loans for training?

IN the US., the average for-hire line pilot starts at somewhere in the mid-30s. Merit and seniority raises run around 5%, so you'll be a while cutting that financial tail (and eating too).

3. I am currently thinking of Cabair or OAT as a training school. Are there any others I could be looking at?

IN the US, I recommend picking your instructor rather than a particular school, training helo or accepting bids-which are SWAGS anyhow...

4. Does anyone have any particular views or experiences as to the pros and cons of pursuing the rotary wing career route?

If you have to ask, don't do it. 34 years on, and I still love it.

5. What can one hope to achieve with a CPL(H)?

Job satisfaction and years of easy tax returns.

[Skycop]

Whirlybird,

IMHO, most of what you posted is along the right lines and good advice except for one thing.

You appear to give the impression that a left hand seat on the north sea qualifies a pilot to carry out police flying or SAR.

Sorry, but that isn't true and never has been. Both of those roles require much more experience.

Best regards, :)

[Rotorhead]

To fly is heaven, to hover is divine:D

Pull on stick - houses get smaller, Push on stick houses get bigger. Consider yourself briefed!

[Whirlybird]

Skycop,

Thanks for that. I was just repeating what I'd heard...or maybe what I'd misunderstood.

[Skycop]

Forgive me if my figures are out, as I actually gave my handcuffs, bullet proof vest and machine gun (:D ) back a while ago, but the CAA minimum hours for police ops (laid down in the PAOM) are something like:

1500 hrs total
500 hrs captain
50 hrs night
A significant amount of low flying.

These are the CAA minima. I think the requirement is also for the time to be on twin engined helis, quite a lot of self improvers don't fly twins before moving to the north sea and that therefore can be a problem on the captaincy time.

It's the last bit that also catches out the north sea chaps.

Some units do require significantly more than this and lay down additional experience requirements, sometimes at least double these figures. However, they are all subject to the usual problems of supply and demand so some units might be flexible, others stand absolutely firm on the minima.

Most units are manned almost entirely by ex-mil pilots as they tend to have more relevant "bread and butter" experience.

Standing by for incoming flak from the north sea area

[Whirlybird]

Skycop,

That is really really interesting. I never looked into it in any detail, since I didn't really plan to go that route, but the sort of general rumours floating (hovering?) around at flying schools - well, one in particular - were that you did your CPL(H), off you went to the North Sea with your certificate and your 185 hours (this was pre 9/11), and after two or three years there the rotary world was your oyster!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: .

All, it would seem, bloody lies!!!:mad: Though is the fact that flying schools bend the truth to get customers anything new? Trouble is, not a lot of newish PPLs know that. :(

[MBJ]

Jimbob 123, are you under 26 and have you got some A levels? If so join the military and get the Queen (God bless her!) to pay for your training. I've been doing it 33 years now and its still a blast!

As for RW or FW, well, RW is so cool it hurts, FW drive buses for much more money. (But are they really, really happy?...):cool:

[too young to die]

Interesting AB, is there any links or news on the web reference this NZ Govt enquiry of aviation degrees?

[Shawn Coyle]

Regarding getting the degree-
It may be a tossup whether the degree will actually help or not, but a surprising number of airlines require a degree, and it will only be a matter of time before that hits the helicopter world too. Right now there are a surprising number of helicopter pilots who have no degree and no intention of getting a degree. Does this hinder our technical knowledge and ability to make things better? Not sure, but it would be an interesting study.
Unfortunately if it is shown that a large part of the operators not having a degree does hinder the overall technical picture, it's way too late to do anything about it.
Get the degree - you never know when it, and the knowledge that went into it will come in handy.
(from an engineering degree holder)

[helipilotnz]

hi all
i started last year doing a diploma in aviation at SIT in invercargill. it contains a management diploma and commercial helicopter with turbine rating or stiffy commercial with multi rating. i have achieved the ppl(h) and this year will continue towards cpl. options for extras are pretty good. i am also doing ppl(a) then a stiffy instrument rating( as there is no other way to get inst in nz). i am considering geting the PIC time and then a c cat rating at the end of this year and begining of the next. the government has kindly let me put this on a student loan ( first time for helicopter last year) i will be in debt a lot but hopfully employable. i am english born but if you can get citizenship it is not a problem. our weather conditions and terrain are apparently great to learn in while still being cheapish. the job market is an unknown quatity for us being newbies but the diploma in management should help get in the door(fingers crossed). some great advice above. i just hope i can get a green card as the usa seems the only place to find work with low time.

[PILGRIM PETE]

I'm in a similar situation to HelipilotNZ, Pomme training for a CPL H and full time job to boot, I'm not going through any Uni though.
A mate at work knows someone just starting a CPL H through Massey but its going to cost him 70K NZ which is plenty more than I'm paying (admitedly he's on a 300 & I'm on a 22. Seems like the ground school is subsidised but the flying may not be.
I know one thing, Uni's will do anything to sell courses and if people want to pay....
It's a shame, NZ has shed loads of jobs, just not in aviation but that's not unique. Whats more worrying is the sometimes poor perception of NZ employers, can't be all bad.

[DesertRacer]

Capt. Spud,
I am in Prescott as well. I will be starting at Guidance soon, if you are going to do the helicopter thing let me know, or if you have already started, give me a heads up on how it's going. It's nice to get to know some people in the Heli business here in town.
Justin

[Ready2Fly]

Hi,

i want to ask for your advice on some issues when starting a PPL(H) and beware, i am a real beginner:

I was always interested in helicopters (otherwise i would not be here) but i did not go for it as a profession. Meanwhile i have a well paid profession not within aviation and i am in a position to pay for taking lessons towards a PPL(H). I am in germany so maybe things differ but i think some things are the same all over the world.

Last August i had the chance of taking an introdution lesson and this was maybe the biggest 'mistake' because afterwards i was not just interested in helicopters anymore but i knew i had to get a licence. The company i flew with is not just a flying school but does several other tasks in aviation including maintenance. It was a sunny day and after 30 minutes of briefing we went out to the helicopter (R22) and 5 minutes later we were airborn. We got to the grass runway to hover and i was told by the instructor first to take care of the pedals then cyclic and last but not least the stick as well. I have never been flying a helicopter before and it was kind of 'frightening' because the helicopter was flying with me and not i with the helicopter (ok, what do you expect after 10 minutes). But nevertheless it got better. The instructor told me he was 'impressed' with what i achieved after about 20 minutes. I would have crashed the helicopter when being alone in - no question - but he said, others would need 5 to 7 hours for what i did after 30 minutes and i was up to the top 5 students he had. Then we did some circuits where he demonstrated two autos (i had control in the circuits as well) and short before the end he told me, it was a waste of talent if i did not start to take lessons and get a licence.

Now, i am not 18 anymore, so, eventhough i was flattered at first i kindly felt kind of - hmmm - let's say a bad smell some days after because it came to my mind, that he was maybe just more interested in getting a new contract signed for the company.

Nevertheless, i collected all the necessary documents including medical (german class I and III) and i am waiting for spring to start. I have not had a look for other schools because - like i said - i got a good impression of the company, nice environment and helpful, friendly and supportive staff always open to answer questions. And furthermore, there are not that many schools around in germany (compared to the US for example).

My question is: What would you consider (in terms of the school) before signing a contract that moves about 25k dollars out of your pocket (PPL(H) with ratings on R22 and R44)?

The instructor i have been flying with was about 8 years younger then myself and had about 500 hours at that point of time. Maybe i am wrongly thinking about his interest and i am really 'talented' and it was really just is opinion.

The company is in business for about 16 years and my guess is, that the flying school (R22 and R44) takes only 20%-30% of their tasks. They are also operating turbines like A109C, B206, BO105, EC120B, AS350B2 and AS355N.

Sorry for this rather long post and i hope you have some opinions to share.

Best regards

[B Sousa]

Sounds Like your Instructor was "blowin smoke" to get you to sign up.
If you want to fly, do it. You can shop around and depending on what you want out of flying, adjust your training accordingly. Some want to make it a career, others just for a hobby. Some have tons of money, the rest of us are broke.
Dont jump into ANY contracts until your sure. They have a tendancy to bite you in the ass if for some reason you dont want to continue. www.aopa.org may have some legal advice on contracts. I personally think that if you want to fly, put some money on the books, fly it off, then put some more. That way they have an incentive to keep you around.
Another thing you dont want to get caught in is doing some training,then laying off for a period. Its sort of like taking one step forward and two back. It also costs you more money. Try and get things done in as short of a period of time as you can.
Good Luck.

[pa42]

One hopes you've made a list of OTHER fun things you could do with $25K. As you seem to know, you're putting yourself at risk of becoming addicted. And asking for advice from other addicts? Hmmm. What does your psychiatrist say?

Given that caveat, I WOULD NOT hand over $25K at the outset--too many companies suddenly go out of business when the principals take off for Rio with the bank accounts. In the USA, Enron comes to mind--certified by major accounting firms, but Poof! all gone.

But as B Sousa comments, it's counterproductive to do a few lessons and then lay off for a while. VERY counterproductive. So do this instead: put the $25K in a separate, dedicated bank account, so there will always be reserve funds to take you all the way through training. But it's in YOUR name, so if they fold you still have it!

Counterproductivity: when I was a Chief Flight Instructor, my school attendance records & CFI evaluations showed clearly that a student who did NOT take two lessons a week kept having to review things already learned-and-forgotten. And in our coastal fog environment (Santa Barbara, CA) the student had to be scheduled for FOUR lessons a week so as to complete two a week, the others being cancelled for weather.

So give up everything else in your life for the few months it takes to get your ratings. Don't allow distractions or cancellations for parties or hangovers or girls--get through the license, THEN relax.

If you want to reduce total flight training hours, study not only the texts, but hang a broomstick cyclic in front of the TV, another broomstick for collective hangs from chairback, and something for pedals. Practice, practice, practice. Stack of flashcards on your knee at same time? Endless free possibilities. (Suspend TV from pulleys connected to the broomsticks? Work it all out and simulator sales will pay for your new R44!)

[Ready2Fly]

Thanks for your comments so far and please keep them coming:

@kissmysquirrel
Well, it seems europe is still holding a record in costs but i guess the UK is even more expensive on a per hour basis. In germany (still pre JAR-FCL) you need 45 hours, maybe 40 hours if you finish within 5 months. I am fine with an 500 hours instructor because i am sure he can bring us down more safe than i could on my own when flying with him.

@b Sousa
I have the same opinion concerning "blowin smoke". And to make this clear: I won't have to pay 25k in advance. At the beginning EUR 1200 for books and all training material including the paperwork the school does for me for the LBA (probably the FAA in germany). Then i have to put ~ EUR 3000 - 5000 into an account of the company and fly (one hour R22 is ~ EUR 300, one hour R44 ~ EUR 500 and my contract would be 30 hours R22, ten on R44 - that is for the minimum of 40 hours only, i bet i need more). When that amount is gone, you transfer the next part and so on. I will take a look at the website.

@pa 42
I know what else to buy for 25k but nothing, that "attracts" me in the same way (right now). Concerning getting addicted, well, too late. I should not have done the introduction lesson ;-) And for the money, look at my comments to b Sousa. And you are right: You have to concentrate on that ONE thing, otherwise it is a waste of time (well, ok) and money (ouch). The thing is, when i start with something i want to do it 110% or i would not want to start.

To all of you: I will definately try to do it in the shortest possible time. I think i would want to start with 5 hours of flying a day but that might be contraproductive because you get exhausted quite soon as a beginner i guess. Maybe i take a week off when i begin to do groundschool and flying at the same time (school in the morning and maybe 1-2 hours of flying in the afternoon). I should have at least 2 hours of flying a week. This was why i did not start in autumn last year, it gets dark too early to be able to fly in the early evening and i can not go on holidays for 6 weeks. Furthermore you have to get too many things in your head (theory but also flying): I do not want to waste time but on the other hand i do not want to rush.

I am asking myself how long it will take for me to be able to do a stable hover. Heard about these 5-7 hour 'rule' that it takes 'on average' for someone. And eventhough i do not have any comparison, my impression of the R22 is (what i read as well) that it is quite 'responsive' to any movements on the stick, even the vibration of the engine (which you feel in your hand) has to be compensated.

[B Sousa]

The amount of money to learn how to fly today is scary. I have been very fortunate in that respect. You can always explore other avenues and Im hoping someone will jump in and say I just did mine in the states and went back to Europe with a bunch of time much cheaper. Im not up on the conversions so as I said Im hoping.....hello out there, any new pilots who did it in the states??

[Whirlybird]

I got hooked on my trial lesson too. I too had an instructor who told me I was a natural, that he'd never seen anyone else hover with all three controls on a trial lesson, even for the few seconds I managed, that it would really be a shame if I didn't carry on. He was a good salesman, that's all. I got my PPL(H) in about an average number of hours, and have never really been more than an average pilot. I don't regret it, far from it; I love helicopter flying and it's changed my life. But I don't agree with this flattering students to get them to sign up, and when I'm an instructor I won't do it.

How long will it take to learn to hover? I asked the same question. It's impossible to answer. How perfect do you want that hover to be? Are you talking about into wind, out of wind, with a headwind, with no wind, with a gusty wind, on a good day, on a bad day when you're tired? After 300+ hours, I could still improve a lot - and when I fly with a 15,000 hour instructor that becomes very obvious to me.

Five hours of flying a day is going to be counter productive; it's too much, especially at the beginning. I'm not a great believer in this doing it all as quickly as possible; do it at a rate which you enjoy, which fits in with your life, and which doesn't stress you too much. Stress makes learning difficult and therefore slower, so try and relax and enjoy the whole thing; not always easy.

Above all, good luck!

[helipilotnz]

i am doing a cpl over two years in conjunction with a diploma in management in New Zealand. my bill for last year was $40k kiwi for eighty hours ( half of the cpl time).this years is more as i am getting a couple of tubine aircraft ratings, ppl fixed wing and instrument rating ( only way in nz to get an inst rating is fixed wing, besides its cheaper) and the remainder of time for cpl. if you are able to travel shop around for prices. you also get better environments to learn in. not that i am a big time pilot but flying around wanaka and queenstown can be great fun and challenging. congrats on getting interested.

[Ready2Fly]

@Whirlybird
I think you are right in not doing the flattering with your students in the future. In some way it takes away some trust a student should have in his instructor. And with the hover: Well, i was just thinking about a stable hover on a sunny day with zero winds =:-) On a sidenote: I did always enjoy reading your posts about your 'helicopter career' and i am following your way to your FI. Press my thumbs for you and keep on going.

@helipilotnz
The NZD/EUR crossrate is 0.5070 which makes your $40k kiwi equivalent to EUR 20k. I have to say flying in New Zealand is not really a bargain compared to Germany (80 hours here in a R22 is then about $47k kiwi) but still much cheaper. Due to my situation (privat and business) i will not be able to travel around. I am not even sure whether accomodation abroad together with the costs of conversion (FAA to JAA) makes it that much cheaper to get a licence outside of germany. But for building hours you are definately right.

I would really like to know whether here are some pilots from germany around who did their licence abroad.

[Whirlybird]

Ready2Fly,

I agree with you about instructors; I ended up asking to fly with someone else as I didn't trust mine - there was more too it than this, but I think that's where it started...when I found out I mean. As for your hover; it'll take you a few hours, but that's more likely to be a few shortish sessions at the end of other exercises, though schools vary on this. You simply can't practise hovering for that long; it's too intense and you tense up and it's counter productive. So it doesn't actually take that long...but it'll feel like longer than it is! :eek: And, of course, people vary, and how long it takes doesn't have much to do with how good a pilot you are in the long run.

Glad you enjoy my posts. :)

[pa42]

I failed to address the R44 portion of the curriculum they offer . . . I don't see how you benefit from switching types in mid-training, looks to me like they just want to get more money from you.

If the R44 10 hrs is close to 2 X as expensive as R22, then you're throwing away 20 hours of R22 time that would stand you well at Flight Test time. For what? You're not taking the test in an R44!!

Watch out for smoke and mirrors from their marketing dept. . . .

[Ready2Fly]

I should have mentioned something on the regulations concerning Robinson helicopters in germany: It is not only the hours that you need in the R44 to get a rating but (i think since 1995 in germany) you also have to do an awareness training in it (R22 as well if you want to obtain a rating) to cover especially extensive training of autos, manual control of rotor- and engine rpm without governor, avoidance and detection of low rotorspeed, reestablishing of normal flight conditions and effect of low g condition and appropriate ways 'to get out'. I do not know whether this kind of awareness training is necessary all over the world to obtain a rating for a R22 or R44.

There are three combinations for the PPL(H):

1. Do it all on the R22 and get only a rating for the R22 (including R22 awareness) with your licence.

2. Do a combination of 30 hours R22 and 10 in R44 and you get both ratings (including awareness on both) with your licence.

3. Do it only in the R44 (or even in a turbine which is much too expensive and a waste of money just for the PPL(H) in my opinion) and you obtain the rating with your licence.

Now, the thing is, doing a combination of R22 and R44 is cheaper than doing the PPL(H) just on the R22 and obtaining the rating with the needed awareness on the R44 afterwards. I should have mentioned this in advance because they clearly state the numbers and i am not forced to do the PPL(H) on both types.

You are right, the test flight will not be in the R44 but R22. It is because of the additional costs of the awareness training that i want to go for the combination when doing the PPL(H). Without the awareness training you would only need 5 hours (single engine helicopters with more than 3 seats) for the type rating.

P.S.: I just checked the prices/hour: R22 EUR 330 and R44 EUR 510

[Aladdinsane]

Does anyone not think it strange that on an intro flight an instructor gets a prospective student to try and hover and demo's auto's?????

Two of the most difficult things to get right in the first 30 minutes of being in a helicopter, geez no wonder you were a bit perplexed about it all.

I am suprised no-one has thought that this experience was abnormal for an intro flight.

[Chris Cooper]

I’ve recently started learning to fly in Sydney, Australia. I’m reasonably new to the helicopter world, but I also think it’s a little strange to have been shown an auto as part of a trial intro flight. I’d be interested what other folks TIFs have consisted of...but maybe that’s going off-topic.

Having said that, my TIF consisted of flying straight and level, a few turns, a few climbs and descents. I was in control of each of the controls individually (never all together). Unfortunately this lulled me into a false sense of security, and just as I was beginning to think I was a dab hand at this helicopter flying business, the instructor took us down and let me have a go hovering. I was hoping to be Ok, but I hadn’t quite grasped how important visual cues and perspective were when learning to hover (and equally the delay from control input to control response in an R22…oh, did that cause some fun..). However, the hovering was without the best bit and I started a CPL(H) course five months later.

Ready2Fly: I’m on lesson 14 right now and am enjoying myself immensely – I know you will too. To answer the original questions (what would you consider in terms of the school before signing a contract…etc.), I considered the following: cost, location, what type of machine the school trained in, and what kind of impression the various schools I visited left on me.

I concluded that cost was more or less the same across all 3 schools I went to. Location was quite a limiting factor, but fortunately I had 3 to choose from (all within Sydney). I was happy to learn on the R22 and still have no regrets, and the school I visited was friendly, open and left me with an all round ‘relaxed’ feeling. This latter point was extremely important to me.

Prior to starting, I also had concerns about being taught by various instructors (all of whom were at various levels of flying hours). However, as soon as I started, I found pretty quickly that an advantage of being trained by different instructors was that you got as many different perspectives/criticisms on flying technique. In addition to this, I haven’t noticed any particular difference in ‘quality’, which goes to back up what someone said earlier in this thread that an instructor is an instructor…if you see what I mean. Maybe I'm rambling.

Sorry for the long post…my first to this group and I’m glad to get off the mark…

[Helo]

From what I've seen in the UK (and my own experience), trial flights include autos and trying to hover - I agree with Helibloke regarding the reasons.

Ready2Fly, re R44 costs, the average for two schools in the SE of England are as follows (inclusive of the VAT) - self fly hire, around £335-£340 per datcon hour i.e. collective up time, training around £400-£420 per hour rotors turning i.e. you need to add on 0.1 hour onto the datcon reading.

So ...... as usual, I think the UK has it in terms of excessive costs. It's the dreaded VAT that does (most of) it. Oh yeah, and don't forget to add on around £15 per landing and about the same for circuits in the UK.

Oh yeah, and budget for at least 50 hours learning to fly time, rather than the statutory minimum to be realistic - if you do in less then well done, if you do in more, then at least you were more realistic.

Helo

[Ready2Fly]

I liked it to be shown hover and autos, like Helibloke said: If you want to go straight and level do fixed wing. But i have to admit, when he told me he was going to demonstrate an auto i said: "You are joking..." and i instinctively wanted to pull the cyclic when coming down to 10 feet. Obviously i did not touch the controls at all, but someone in my ear said: Get your hand on that lever and puuuull ;)

Aladdinsane: Not that you got me wrong, he demonstrated an auto to me, not the other way round =:) I think you knew that anyway.

Chris: Thanks for your input on the school. Like i said, there are not so many around (in germany, not just around my town) and i agree with you: Even if it was a little more expensive i would always choose a school where i have a good 'relaxing' feeling. Money is important but why spend money when you can not enjoy what you are doing with it. I think you need to develop a certain sense to be ahead of the helicopter. I mean, to feel what might happen next before it happens. Maybe i am talking completely nonsense now as well. And i agree with you that it is good to have different instructors (they have 5 pilots, all of them instructing) during the course. Not every hour another one but to change from time to time. First the risk of learning bad habits is less (and as a student you might not know that you are learnig a bad habit, you have nothing to compare with what you are taught) and it gives you a good feedback when flying with someone else because everyone does it a bit different i guess. The two or three schools around here all teach on R22 (and R44) but not on H269C. I am fine with the R22 (i did not even know of any 'problems' with it before doing the TIF) eventhough it will take some time to be able to control it. As long as i do not try another type, i can not compare it and so, have to deal with it (like hundreds of other students before).

Helo: You gave me a good feeling about the costs. Goodness, who can afford these prices in the UK (evenmore, why are there still schools doing PPL(H) courses)? I know, it is the same with property etc. but GBP 400 - 420 for a R44, well, i guess i would leave it then. I am not planning with the minimum though. There is enough 'room' left for more than just 40 or 45 hours. Today i do not even believe that i'd pass a flight test with 100 hours (just thinking of the hover =:) which does not mean that i'd planned with 100 hours).

[helihaund]

From what I've learned on the long way of pursuit to become a helicopter pilot, here is my honest bit to the mill.
I recommend to a new guy looking for flight training, to go out on the ramp and see the fleet. How many helicopters are out there and what is the ratio to student and CFI. Is the maintenanance
done there ? Can you take your written and your checkride there ? What's the flying environment like ( climate)? What do other students have to say ? How many times a week can you fly? Schedule 4 times a week minimum, there is always a weather day or unscheduled maintenance somewhere. Fly as much as you can manage, it will save you time and money! To my experience, an average student takes about 10 hrs of dual to hover. By that time, straight and level and attitude flying start comming together. Next crunch is trimed takeoff and the biggest one, normal approach. That takes another 15-20 hrs. In the US the min dual requirement for a student pilot (R22) is 20 hrs
I have only had one (fixed wing pilot) who was able to solo with the min time, all others were between 25 -30 hrs. The rest of the flight training ( including emergencies and the rest of the sullabus) brings the national average to about 65 hours TT for PPL checkride. Now that can vary anywhere between 8 weeks and 8 months! As far as paying for flight training, I recommend paying in blocks, never all up front! Fly one helicopter model and dont' go back and forth between them. R22, R44 ,C300 are all very different animals and it will not be beneficial to you in the begining. Stay with one CFI and have another fly with you every 10 hrs or so and check your progress. He may have a better (different) way of comming through a problem or a plateau.
Stick with it! There's nothing like it.
Good lucklow and slow

[Hilico]

Did I see someone say 'fly five hours a day'? Utterly insane.

Having one hour in helicopters and having a little money to spare, I rang a school and said 'can I have three hours in your H300 and half an hour in a JR'. 'No'. I was stunned into silence. This was the MD I was talking to. Isn't he trying to sell flying? "After the second trip you would be asleep. We'll take you up for one session, and then you can see how you feel."

I did one session in the first morning, and another in the afternoon. It was fantastic! I could hover! Weather was ideal, but hey.

On the morning of the second day, I could barely get out of bed. All the time I was thinking, "I love flying a helicopter and I'm going to do it again today", but I missed the first train and fell asleep in my seat on the one that I did catch. By the end of the second day's flying I was getting ragged.

Before that I had talked to another school about their ten-hour 'hover square' course; "yes, pay the two thousand quid into your account and fly all week". B******s.

[Whirlybird]

Hilico,
As you and I well know, there are schools that are interested in money and schools that are interested in their students. Unfortunately it can sometimes be hard to distinguish between the two.

[Ready2Fly]

@helihaund
Thanks for sharing your opinion. When going through your list, i can mark all points positive for the school i want to go to. Ok, i only talked to one of their students but i got a positive picture from what he told me about his training. They have a R44 and a R22 for the school so far and are going to get a new R22 soon (the one they have has about 1300hrs now, well maintained). The maintenance is also done within the company. Because of the costs (doing your PPL(H) on R22 and R44 is cheaper than PPL(H) in R22 and type rating on R44 afterwards) i am still thinking about what road to follow. A combined course includes 30 hours R22 and 10 hrs R44 (done at a later stage). We get JAR-FCL on 01.05.2003 in germany and the only thing that changes for sure is higher costs. I am planning to start before to do the PPL(H) still under the 'old regulations' (minimum 45 hrs, 40 hrs if done within 5 months, 80 hours groundschool (1 hr = 45 mins, will go to 60 mins under JAR-FCL regulations). But i do plan more than 45 hrs anyway (time and budget). I will keep in mind what you said concerning mixing of types and thanks for your wishes. Like i said earlier: I was alwas interested in helicopters but got addicted with the first trial hour.

@Hilico
Agree with you. I would never pay such an amount upfront. If it was a policy with a flight school, i would just head for another school.

@Whirlybird
I read about your experience with your PPL(H). Too bad if you notice it that late but thanks for sharing. It might be easier for a lot of people to recognize what goes wrong in the beginning. I doubt that someone starting to learn has a good sense to notice what you mentioned because enthusiasm might keep you away from having second thoughts.

[CyclicRick]

I'm currently working in Germany and know quite a few people in the business and have a bit of time on my hands at the moment (laid off!) so if you'd like to email me do feel free...kannste auch in deutsch schreiben!

[the wizard of auz]

In oz we pay about AUD$380ph for a R22 and not much differant for the B47. Dunno about fixed wing pilots not being able to keep up with it though, I have a CPL(A) and about 4hrs in two types and reckon I will solo in the next two hrs. B47 is a nice craft to fly and way easier than the R22, but I think if you fly the R22 it will make a better pilot of you.

[empty pockets]

hey,

i am a wannabe pilot and, as i have yet to start any flight training, havent made up my mind whether i want to pursue a career flying fixed wing aircraft or helicopters.

my questions are:

1] what are the training routes to acheive the ATPL(H) [or at least a CPL(H)] and the typical training costs involved (would be interested in £sterling equivalent costs for training in australia etc.)

2] what are the typical heli jobs available to a low timer and the annual pay i could expect?

3] what is the state of the heli jobs market? is it expected to pick up soon?

4] if i decided to go the dual rated route, which sections (if any) can i skip from the fixed wing/rotary courses and what would the approx. total cost be?

any advice you can give will be gratefully received! i know heli flying is expensive but it looks far cooler than flying jetliners.

[B Sousa]

I cant speak for anything in the UK, and based on what I see of the Licensing procedures there, Im quite thankful for that.
However in the states, here are my thoughts.

1) Either have lots of money OR get your Fixed Wing ratings and then Add-On Helicopter. It seems to be the cheapest route to the Ratings... I said ratings not proficiency, total time and employment.

2) Typical jobs for low timers......NONE unless you marry the owners daughter. Bottom line Helicopter work seems to be around 1000 hours of turbine time. That usually requires about 1500 hours total or more. Others, Im sure, will post diferently depending on availability and geographic locations.

3) If you have a Commercial and around 2500 hours PIC it means you have a little variety of experience and can usually find work. But thats the bottom line, its work and starts at the bottom of the pay scale. As long as you move from job to job you are always going to be on the bottom unless you advance your ratings and get to more sophisticated aircraft... (here goes those big heads in SPIFR twins)

4) As mentioned above its cheaper. Contact a few flight schools and TALK to others, then you do the math.

[Aussierotor]

There are flying schools on the beautiful sunshine coast in Queenland.One is Chopperline.
Doing a full time course gets it done in less hours,and they do the dual course.
PPL in planes ,rest done on choppers----cost now (was 29 a few years ago) maybe just under $35---------under 15 pommy pounds.
Accomodation can be supplied at well under $100 a week ,plus a great place and great climate.
Just check "helicopter training--australia" or similar in www.google.com to find the places.
Only trouble with a dual course is that you dont end up with enough heli hours and seems to me most choppers have a minimum of 100 hours for insurance reasons.

Jobs ,well thats another question.---can be lucky,but getting harder.Once you went mustering but now the stockman who had experience on bikes and horses have moved up into that.

Choose a good school ,one i think is PRD.that give you a turbine endorsement for half price and if lucky at the time,send you to Ayres Rock for tourist flights .

One thing in your favour is exchange rates.I reckon flight out ,course,turbine endorsement and board should only set you back under 20.000 Pounds

Geez ,not PRD but PHS

www.chopperline.com.au
www.phs.com.au
www.beckerhelicopters.com.au
www.bluetonguehelicopters.com.au

[Captain Lai Hai]

reference flying schools on the sunshine coast avoid the third one down.

[buttline]

Empty Pockets,

I'm a JAR CPL(H) and JAR CPL(A)/MEIR with ATPL exams in both (but still low hours in both).

All your rotary P1 time will count towards the P1 requirement for CPL(A) issue up to 100hrs. However, you still need 70hrs P1 in AEROPLANES for the multi-engine issue (which you need for the ME IR).

If you do the aeroplane ATPLs, you only need to do POF to get the rotary ATPLs added. The other way around you'll need to do POF, Performance and Aircraft General. (do the aeroplane ones first!)

To be a heli instructor under JAR you need 300hrs total time (includes FW and rotary) before starting the FI course, whereas I believe its 200hrs total time required for FW instructors...

In the UK, unless you have a connection somewhere, as a low-hours heli pilot your options are either instruction or North Sea co-joe IF they're hiring. But the FW job market in the UK sucks right now also.

As a guideline, a FW instructor in the UK makes about 20 quid an hour and a rotary instructor makes about 40 quid an hour but you'll get the 'magic' 1000hrs more quickly with lower hourly pay somewhere with better weather..

A rotary IR is only going to (potentially) help you with a North Sea position. No other operator is going to hire you as a low hours pilot with an IR for what seems to be mostly single-pilot IFR flying. However, in the FW world an ME/IR is expected by all airlines for First Officer positions..

I can't really help you on which to go for.. It's totally subjective and depends on so many factors like salary expectations, lifestyle etc. However, I'll stick my neck out and say that IMHO helicopters are a more engaging flying experience but that the FW world probably offers better long-term career and pay prospects.

IMHO:

Most challenging things learning to fly helicopters:-

- Basic lack of stability
- Hovering (but once you can do it, you can do it)
- Autorotations and engine off landings
- Confined area approaches


Most challenging things learning to fly aeroplanes:-

- managing configuration changes (flaps, speedbreaks, gear etc)
- speed (things happen quickly at 4-6 nm/min)
- Crosswind landings
- Coping with assymetric thrust (one engine out)

[The Nr Fairy]

buttline :

Last I heard it was 300 hours in helicopters to do the FI course - I've got 300 total, but only 180 or so in helicopters, so I'm short 120 hours.

Unless anyone out there knows different ?

[Whirlybird]

buttline and Nr Fairy,

It's DEFINITELY 300 hours ROTARY. I know that's not obvious from reading JAR, but that's what it is; I checked it out very thoroughly with the CAA, since I was in the same position when I got my CPL(H). Still, it gave me the excuse to go flying in the US and Russia. :)

[jonnyg]

My friend in London and wants to learn to fly rotary, he´s been quoted 5500 pounds for a PPL(H)!!!!! - he didn´t know if that was JAA or National. The airfield was in Manston. I told him they were yanking his chain or is this really possible, I think not........

[Slotty]

If it sounds too good to be true then it probably is, at a minimum of 45 hours (39 if you have a PPL(A)) at about £220 an hour then it'll be £9900 and thats a cheap rate for an hour. they can only be charging £122/hour which sounds wrong, instructors get about £45/hour!! :confused:

[Helinut]

Plus of course virtually no one in the real world does it in the minimum hours - I think NOT

[Whirlygig]

I agree with everyone else; that figure quoted is about 50% cheaper than anything I've been quoted.

As for JAA or NPPL; for helicopters the PPL(H) is the JAA exam; the NPPL is for fixed wing only at the moment which makes it tougher!

Hope that helps.

[Jarvy]

I fly with the only helicopter company at Manston and no one here
would have quoted this price. As others have said the normal
hourly rate for PPL(H) is approx 230 per hour.

[t'aint natural]

Send a cheque for that amount made out to ME PERSONALLY and I'll come round your place and tell you how it's done.

[Traps]

Hi All

well after 15 years flying for Big Airline (737 et al) I have decided that I would like to return to my roots and strap a helo on again. I flew for 8 years in the RN (Gazelle, Wessex, SeaKing Commando) and after leaving assumed I was of to better things in the airline industry.....wrong!!! Money nice but no flying just button pushing.
I have kept up my ATPL(H) (no helo IR) by having 5 hours no less in an Enstrom to revalidate my licence. (S61 also on licence).
I have been given a retirement option by Big Airline so money is not hugely important. Idealy I would like to fly Air Ambulance or Police work, definately not rig work (sorry guys). Any ideas from anyone? Location not important although preferably not South East.
So what do you reckon? After 15 years will anyone want my talents or was it all just a beautiful dream?

[topcat450]

I'd have thought speaking to Police Aviation Services down at Staverton...they'd have given you the low-down as to how employable you are. And they run a lot of the EMS/Police choppers around the UK so they'd be a good co to get friendly with.

Hope it helps

TC

Actually I just noticed your in Cheshire, I believe in your area the police use fixed wing aircraft too, so that could be another option. Its a twin turbo-prob but I'm darned if I can remember it...I can picture it..but am having a blond moment..I'm sure someone else could enlighten us.

[expedite_climb]

topc - do you mean an islander. Dunno about chesire, but county durham use a islander (twin piston) from MME and a chopper from NCL.

[topcat450]

Yup I was thinking of an Islander...I could've sworn Cheshire had them. Again, PAS are the guys to ask...

[cyclic flare]

The police islander for Cheshire is based at Hawarden near Chester. Not sure what they get up too, but hear it quiet frequently on the radio.

[gonedeaf]

Traps

You say money is not hugely important as you have a retirement option from the airline.

If you are offered a job, try to remember there are quite a few helicopter pilots out there with no retirement package etc who are trying to make a decent living. (ie trying to get paid a decent wage).

I guess what I am trying to say is don`t work for peanuts just because you have another income.

[Thomas coupling]

Traps,

I agree with the last comment, you have the luxury of picking and choosing because you feel the need to change direction...I continue to receive endless Cv's from genuine, sometimes desperate helo drivers who would give their hind teeth to fly in our industry.
A word of advice...if you are determined to break into our territory, change your background story, or it won't go down well by some of these more deserving people.

Cheshire fly an Islander, they might even be increasing their operational availability, but I could not possibly comment on that!
They are looking for pilots, and currently they are doing it through PAS, Staverton...but who knows what is around the corner, at this quiet outpost??

[B Sousa]

Traps
There are jobs after retirement. We are in the same boat in that sense. I retired from Law Enforcement about seven years ago and have been flying all over the world since them. I had plenty of the right numbers to get a job albeit every company has you at the bottom of the list.....Who cares. Your seeing the world on someone elses dime and they pay you also.
I just finished almost five months in the Caribbean and am now back in Las Vegas doing tours. Dont limit yourself to flying in the U.K. theres plenty of nice places to see....
The secret you may ask has to do with what Gonedeaf mentioned. I DONT COMPETE with those who need this life as a sole means of income. I work part time or relief and my employers schedule me accordingly. I get more than enough flying and a nice paycheck to boot. The other Pilots know Im not a threat to their jobs and are actually happy as they know someone is around when they need an extra day off.
Its a great life. Email is good if you have questions.

[Arm out the window]

Thomas Coupling,
I don't think there's any need to change 'background stories' as long as Traps, or anyone for that matter, is honest about his or her motivation and has a bit of tact and empathy when talking money to co-workers, if it comes up.
Sure, don't agree to being paid peanuts for work, but a bit of research should give an idea of what is an acceptable wage for whatever jobs are about.
Like BSousa, I'm doing casual work, nobody gets upset about my previous career or different path into the job, and it's working out great lifestyle wise.
Many people in aviation seem to think the only way to go is bigger and more highly paid, understandably I guess, but I'd like to think there is also room for those who choose to take what some would call a backward step in order to regain some job satisfaction.
The industry probably benefits in a way from the different viewpoint and experiences of these people, although I do understand the frustration of those trying to break in who may see it as taking limited jobs. On that issue, if you're working on a casual basis, you'll provide a handy fill-in when the full-timers hit their duty limits, get sick or whatever, and make it more likely that they will be able to take their leave when they want to.

[empty pockets]

as i have been browsing this forum, i have noticed that quite a few of you have really cool jobs - flying some nice machinery in various exotic locations.

to inspire us young wannabe heli pilots, it would be nice to hear how you guys went about getting your wings, and a few stories of the cooler jobs you have had.

i especially want to know how to become a mercenary and get to fly that awesome Mi-24!!!

[RW-1]

Please include whether it was

who you knew at the time,
who you knew intimately at the time,

if payment was in cash, check or money order.... :D

Argh ... after 4 long hard years, I'm seeing the light (CFI Checkride within the next 90 days gang), and its a Landing light coming at me hehe. (And CFI is only the beginning! :sad: )

[GLSNightPilot]

My rich uncle, Sam, needed young & stupid pilots for the Southeast Asia war games back in '71, so he provided me a scholarship to US Army Flight School. After 10 years, I had paid him back, so I quit that & came to the Gulf of Mexico, where pretty much everyone needed pilots. I hired on & I'm still here. Obvious lack of ambition. As soon as I get enough time logged, I'm going to get a real job. ;)

[SASless]

GLS....Shame on you.....lying to the lads! We know the truth....you made so much money in the Gulf you just do it now to have an excuse to get away from the wives....four ex's and the current one! The other reason you hang around the oil patch is to see what enlightened management decisions come down the pike.....and wait for an opportunity to give some of that "easy money" back to them. The truth to your buying that mobile home is so you can feel like you are in your normal accomodations....do you still pee out the door like you do at work?

[GLSNightPilot]

SASless, you pretty much caught me, except for the wives. I'm still on the first one, don't know how that happened. She stays with me, for some unfathomable reason.

[SASless]

GLS....

Must be your natural charm and salve what hair....and that big ol' fat wallet with all that money. Is it true you guys have to use a wheel barrow to carry it to the bank? I know it is hard to save....what with all the ways to spend it at the work sites...like Fort Fooooo-shannnnn and Venice....all the girlie bars and disco's....five star restaurants and shopping malls.

[GLSNightPilot]

Must be your natural charm and salve what hair....and that big ol' fat wallet with all that money.

Naw, all helicopter pilots get those, they're issued with the license. :cool: .:ok:

As for Port Fourchon (foooshawn), it's a wonderful place. Some time back I heard some tugboat crews on the marine radio desperate for the Lousiana powerball lottery numbers. Their plan, if they won, was to drop the lines to the jackup rig they were towing, & head for Fourchon. They didn't say what they planned to do once they got there. :D

In Intracoastal City (someone was really, really optimistic to name that hole "city"!) you have a grocery store, laundromat, liquor store, gas station, restaurant, beer joint, all under one roof. It's a small roof, though. :}

All in all, with such wonderful places to work, I don't know why we even bother to leave at the end of the hitch. And we're trying to save some of the money - my wife has her eye on a loaf of bread, & we may buy it some day.

[Devil 49]

Like GLS, I learned to fly courtesy of my rich uncle and the SE Asian unpleasentness. My exposure to the military didn't take.

Tried "work" for 10 years, then returned to flying helos. With no civilian time, I naturally started out as a CFI, then went to the GOM to get some 206 time and stayed 13 years.

Currently a helo ems slave in my soon to be ex's hometown.

As to your wish to fly big iron and shoot people-that gets very old very, very quickly.

[Crashondeck]

It seems that most of the guys have either got Uncle Sam or HRH to pay for their flying lessons.

I did it the other way: PPL, AFI, QFI, CPL. Cost a mint, ruined a few relationships but never regretted it. I now fly SAR. Brilliant job with great guys.

Keep that dream alive and one day you might be lucky (????!!!) enough to fly one of those big Russian jobs - rather you than me!!

[Camp Freddie]

I was like "crashondeck", PPL/AFI/QFI/CPL/ATPL now fly offshore in the UK, cost-a-packet, even allowing for NVQ, took 4 years from when I started till I got a "proper" job although was instructing after about 18 months on the old "self improver route"

marriage survived it, looking back would never have started if I knew how much effort and particularly time was involved especially at the "QFI" stage (full time instructing is very very time hungry), but now I am there it was worth it.

to anyone starting out, I have not found any rocket science involved, hard bits (for me anyway) were the AFI course, and the IR course (IR course was really hard), CPL flying course was relatively easy oh yeah and dont forget the dreaded "commercial exams", they were difficult because of the volume of information to learn

for newbies, dont give up and certainly dont expect anyone to hire you when you have your shiny new JAR CPL(H), and try not to think too far ahead, I used to have PPL students who were going on about commercial exams and I would say " why dont we learn to hover first" !

[Ascend Charlie]

I was fortunate enough to learn at a school that could cover all the desirable add-ons. In a concentrated 3-month course, I did all the ground school, aircraft knowledge, and 105 hours of flying training to get: basic qualification, endorsements for low level , night VFR, sling , hoist , turbine, formation, and Instrument Rating. Very hard work, but achievable.

They even gave me a job straight out of school, as long as I wore their Blue Suit for a certain number of years.:8

[theraingod]

Crashondeck how long did it take from PPL to SAR?

[Crashondeck]

theraingod....

About 5 years in total, including instructor rating, CPL and an instructing job.

I didnt believe it possible 5 years ago, but I just took it one step at a time and I ended up at the right place at the right time. Dont ask me how I managed that bit......there are some things in this world you cant explain.

cod

[theraingod]

thanks crashondeck, sounds like you did well.

Good to know that people have got what they wanted within some kind of decent time frame and that it is not all ex-army.

Just out of interest does anyone have any idea of the percentage of ex-army to civilian pilots?

[[email protected]]

Crashondeck - perhaps you can post some advice to Calli on his 'flying for HM coastguard thread' since you appear to be in the job.

[rotormad]

Crashondeck


Do you think the only way to SAR is through NS job??

I am in your position 5 years ago and think the same thing you did, nice to know that there is a chance, even if it is a small one.

SAR..ahh my dream job:D

[skinteastwood]

For the last six months I have been researching a career in fixed-wing aviation. Right now things seem to be (very) gloomy at the recruitment end of things, with what seems to be a surplus of well-qualified pilots. I hadn't really thought about rotory as I assumed the cost to be prohibitive. That is until now.

Having recently checked out a few websites I have formulated a few ideas and would appreciate if anyone could help substantiate these or blow me out the sky (pardon the pun).

Is the job-market reasonably buoyant at the moment, and how do things seem to be going? I would not look to become qualified for about 3 years.

Also, what prospects are there for a new guy with low-hours?

Finally, I understand that there is not much logic in going abroad for cheaper training. Is this the case? Will I just end up shelling out more to convert or can the costs be justified?

Any advice to a wanabee is appreciated as I've now confused myself ie. fixed wing/rotory.........

Regards,

Skint.

[Helinut]

Skint,

you are not the first (and probably won't be the last) guy to raise this one. Do a search into past threads and you will dig up all sorts of detailed advice & opinions, some of it good.

A couple of thoughts about your comments:

Helicopters is not the place to go to earn either a good or an easy living at any time. There is only one reason to do it, IMHO: because you love it, and aren't going to be happy unless you do.

Planks are easier, cheaper and with more scope for earning more.

From where I am in the industry, now is not a good time to be starting. Demand is low, supply is not short.

If you are going to succeed in helicopters nothing I say will stop you anyway..................

Good Luck, if you decide to do it.

[rotormad]

Skint

I just wrote a nice big reply but lost it all....nice....so here it is in brief.

1. Helicopter industry is just as hard if not harder to crack than fixed wing (in my opinion)

2. Will cost you alot more to achieve

3. Money is not as good etc etc

4. Training overseas, loads of links. but in general, conversion costs etc, meeting the right people, blah blah, loads more im sure.

Anyway there's my ten cents worth

Good luck

RM

[Steve76]

This comment about the money not being as good is BS.

Plank drivers live on pitance all around the world because there is usually a surplus of them. Certainly the heavy drivers are on 6 figure but on average you need to be flying a 737 to get that or be in command of something like and RJ90/146. The cojoe on the RJ and the captains of things like the Dash 8 are most likely on 60K. If you do your time in the bush (1000-2000hrs) then convert to IFR (twins) you can do your cojoe time in 2 years and then pick up a captains slot on 60K-70K.
So that's 5-6 years verses 10 to 15+ in the FW world. Remember, only a small small portion of the FW mob end up in the 6 figure bracket and they are often in the twilight of their career......and who the hell wants to be a bus driver anyway? ;)

[anichels]

I have been looking at a lot of flight schools to begin this as a career. The more schools I talk to, the more it adds to this nagging question I have. Will there be a job for me after I get over one thousand hours? The irrational, "Flying is so cool" part of my brain says go for it a job will come.

The logical part of my brain says don't be a fool. By my count, the latest FAA advisory circular lists 44 Part 141 operators. If I conservatively estimate that each of these graduates 10 people in a year that means 400 pilots are added to the market annually. Who knows how many the Part 61 schools pump out. Yes some foreign people will leave, but that number is nominal. From the research I've been able to do on the BLS and other websites, industry job growth is much less than 400 jobs per year. I think schools now are too adept at signing students. They are getting too many people to join up. The only result I see from this is an ever-growing capacity for instructing new students.

Most schools have an enticement in their marketing materials about the demographic change that's sweeping through the pilot ranks now. They say all the Vietnam era pilots are on the verge of retiring. From what I see on the forum, that is inaccurate at best. With no FAA age restriction and (theoretically) better working conditions, why would you leave this gig? Even if you all magically left, operators will just starting hiring 300 hour pilots in droves? Not likely.

Now I know I will never get rich being a pilot, but I would like to get a job so I can pay off whatever I have to borrow. As an instructor flying 20 hours per week, the banks will have my a$$ in no time.

I am looking for opinions on either side of the argument -- to be or not to be. And if my numbers are out of line, let me know.

Thanks from a newbie. And sorry for a massive post.

Andy

[Shawn Coyle]

Don't apologize for a massive post. Good questions, and ones that need to be looked at before venturing in to a very expensive field.
I'd check with HAI, as they keep pretty good statistics on this sort of thing.
The pool of suitable pilots is, in my view, quite shallow, and once the aviation business picks up, will rapidly become much more shallow. This is particularly true in the helicopter business. No detailed, rational basis for my view, except some discussions with operators.
Get a variety of types, and keep learning.
Is joining a military an option? Might be a cheaper way than paying for it yourself.

[big buddah]

flyanotherday sorry bud but i'm more onto it and fly fixed wing but here's a few links for you

http://www.piperpat.co.nz/nz/tourism/aviation.html

[reynoldsno1]

Do be careful - this may sound silly, but you do realise it will be the middle of winter?

[bill bridge]

Hi Guys and Gals,

I need some help please!

I want to become a pro-pilot and do my ppl(h) which I am going to pay for up front, followed by my cpl(h) which I know is going to cost me a arm and a leg. On passing these what would you advise my next step to be in order to build hours. Also what ratings will I need in order of importance to get a job.
I have heard I can get a interest free loan for training and payment holidays from the goverment. is this true.


I am 33, am I to old to start a career or sholud I just get my ppl and have a hobby?
Also what kind of hours will I need to get my first job and whats it likely to pay and what will it be doing.

determined to live my dream.


Thanks for the help ppl.

Bill

[Camp Freddie]

hi,

there are basically 3 career paths once you have your shiny new CPL(H)

1) go straight to the north sea as a co-pilot on the super puma, or maybe S76 or dauphine. starting salary approx £30k
very difficult at moment because you also need an instrument rating, IR(H), and they cost maybe £30k, and the offshore companies arent hiring either at the moment they are losing people (CHC), I know bond are hiring but IMO the chances are poor, given the competition.

2) get commercial work onshore with your shiny new CPL, on a jetranger or such like, with less than 200 hours total, the chances of getting this kind of work are low, most companies will not even entertain the thought. starting salary, freelance maybe £150 a day or even for free sometimes

3) build your hours to 300 total, then do a flight instructor course which lasts 30 hours, and then start teaching people for trial lessons and for their PPL(H), then when you have many more hours i.e. 1000+, you hopefully will start to pick up commercial work and maybe go to north sea, the only problem is that the PPL + CPL will cost you at least £40k, and the extra hourbuilding plus instructor course will cost another £20k. starting salary freelance at maybe £35-40 per hour flight time. you will be lucky to get 200 hours in first year, difficult to fly more than about 500 hours per year after that i.e £20k, it is hard work and always have to work weekends

option 3 is the best and lowest risk option and will cost you £60k+
options 1/2 are high risk and less likely to work and will cost you £40k+

when you have got some regular flight instruction, add to your ratings with an R44 and B206 to add more strings to your bow.

this is my opinion as a pilot now working offshore who built experience via instruction and then onshore commercial work first.

anyone care to expand / take issue with the above ?,

[Heli-Ice]

bill bridge

This is going to cost you the white out of your eyes to.

I suggest you look into going to the US and do your training there. There are JAA helicopter flight schools in the US and much better opportunities to get a flight instructor job there than anywhere else.

Do some research on your own and pick one way to go and do it sooner than later because, well, you aren't getting any younger... :}

I have heard of guys starting flying around the age of 40 and making it all the way to a nice heli job. Still anything can be done.

PM me if you like.

Best of luck.

Heli Ice

[Whirlybird]

Bill,

You've got some good advice there. Just one thing no-one's answered yet for you...you can indeed get a Career Development Loan, up to £8000 interest free for two years, and it can be extended for up to another 17 months. The school you're training with needs to have the forms (be an official training provider or whatever term they give it), and you need to be aiming for a CPL...which you are. It's worth getting this, even if you have the cash upfront you can keep the £8000 in the bank and get the interest; every little helps.

Also, if you think you're going to instruct you'll be self-employed, which means you can register for VAT now, and claim it back on all your helicopter training. It helps if either the school you're with, or your accountant, knows about this, as lots of people will tell you it can't be done...do a search on here for recent threads on the subject. But you can do it, the paperwork is easy, it's quite legal, and it will save you 17 and a half% on all your training in the UK!!!!!!

I can't think of anything else to add, except GOOD LUCK...unfortunately unless things change in the helo world you're going to need lots of it.

[theraingod]

Hi Whirly, do you have a few more details of who can provide loans and is it possible to train in the US? Or is it for just the UK?

have asked a few highstreet banks but could only get £3000

thanks

[FlyAnotherDay]

Thanks for all your reponses.

Helinut

I'd found your earlier thread. Oddly enough I was given Simon Spencer Bower's card last week by a 206 owner who had flown with him a couple of years ago. Small world.

Reynoldno1

Am I missing something about winter? - I thought that cold, thick air was good, so long as it wasn't wet!


Roll on July:)

FlyAnotherDay

[Whirlybird]

raingod,

Career Development Loans have to be through specific training providers, and there are special forms to fill out, though it's done through several banks. I don't know about the US though. Your best bet is to phone the flying schools concerned; if they do CDLs, they'll know what you mean.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Great practical and proven advice from Whirly and, never one to spare her blushes, congratulations of the big article about you in the Daily Post:} :}

Regards
Rob

PS - Free plug allowed for your work at Hawarden - several forums on the site owe you a great deal for your contributions over the years.

[Watchoutbelow]

I think its becoming much harder getting into the American market if you are a foreigner, after completeing your CFI training.

Its definitely starting to become much more difiicult and expensive for companies to renew Visas and are going to be less favourable to foreigners looking for work if they only have a very limited time.
Also since Frank Robinson now owns the insurance company that insures his R22's, still the main helicopter used for flight training in most flight schools in the U.S.
The minimum requirement is now 300 hours and you must have completed the Robinson Safety course in the factory in L.A

[Dis-Mystery of Lift]

Fly Another Day.
getting some time down South will be very beneficial for your Flying.High Mountains and exceptional Scenery.Simon has a great Reputation here in NZ and I'd recommend spending some time with him.If you want to do some training in AK drop me aline and we could do a city scenic around AK but it would have to be in a New 300CBI.Nice ship!!But even if you just want to talk Choppers and have a few cold ones let me know.

Skidbiter I will have to correct some of your comments about the R22 crash.Pilot was Pre Cpl with Cpl booked in for the next week.The R22 was an instrument trainer and was used by students for initial training and building up for Cpl's as well as C Cat candidates.The main Robby instructor down there with over 2000hrs on the R22 new his stuff and the R22 safety awareness programme was in place and no different from many other schools in NZ.Please make sure of your facts and not post hearsay.

Safe flying all

[Crashondeck]

Loads of good advice so far, just thought that I would add some non financial stuff:

1. You need a good dose of determination - this is most important.

2. Start with and maintain a professional attitude - you never know who might be giving you a job/reference in the future.

3. Have a plan B to keep you solvent while you go through training

4. Enjoy yourself and remember safety is everything

COD

[Hughesy]

Hey Gambino, go hard in the study mate, biggest peice of advice I can give is to get those exams passed and out of the way! Big relief off the shoulders when they are all done, then you can fully concentrate on the flying. What stage are you at?

[clevenger]

Hows about a forum for Helicopter Training?

Forums exist for Pro Training in USA/UK etc, but a dedicated forum for rotary wing pro training would really be a wonderful resource.

Fantastic site, keep up the good work.

[pa42]

Smashing idea, that. While we're waiting for moderators' decisions, could you perhaps provide the locations of those training forums? Have been prowling the net for heli-training for a couple of years now, haven't discovered them (pesky little thing hide under the rug, I guess).

In case you don't want to put on the forum openly, the private email address is [email protected].

Dave
RV-gypsy w/trailered R22
everywhere Western USA

[pilotwolf]

I think clevenger means the pro-training forums on pprune....

[Heliport]

clevenger
Welcome to Rotoheads.

If you use the 'Search' function, you'll find a mine of information about all aspects of helicopter training not only in the UK, but in many countries all over the world.

Heliport http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-085.gif

[PedalStop]

I have to agree with my fellow moderator, as I feel that a majority of the threads here in Rotorheads are training/instructive in nature. Creating another forum for Training might be redundant, and might even reduce this forum below critical mass - that level of activity where the threads spin of themselves, as ppruners stop by and find an interesting conversation.

What do others think?


Clevenger, on behalf of Rotorheads, thanks for the compliment!

PedalStop, Rotorheads Other Moderator

[clevenger]

Cheers folks,

I appreciate the reluctance to just add another forum willy nilly, but as any prospective student (h) pilot knows, researching schools and attempting to get semi-balanced information and facts out of the slick marketing departments of HAI/Cabair/Hillsboro/Northeast Helicopters et al, is trying at the best of times.

Visa information, the "where to train debate" and such subjects are of course ampley catered in the fixed wing training forums, but there are so many issues particular to rotary training that would warrant a seperate forum (in my humble opinion)

The turnover of Rotorheads is so high I`m sure it could handle a wee sub forum to help us poor confused wannabes.

Again, this site is really a godsend, so cheers anyway.

[bones1972]

As a newbie to these forums myself i'd have to agree with both the Mod's (always a good idea to suck up to the Bosses!)

What few posts I have started regarding Heli school recommendations and other initial training questions have been well responded to by people who have been there, done that and got all the t-shirts.

The problem with having a seperate forum for helicopter wannabes is all we'll get to do is ask other wannabes questions, and not manage to grab the attention of the people with previous experience of the schools, visa's, costs etc - as all the people in the "know" will be hanging around the Rotorheads section discussing things I don't even know the meaning of!!!

Just my two 'peneth worth.
Best regards,
Bones
:ok:

[Camp Freddie]

I think rotorheads is a good "one stop shop", why mess it up and have to look at 2 forums when one is all you need !, you can generally tell if its training or not from the title anyhow

[autosync]

I have some great advice for you all.
Do not under any circumstances pay for training, it makes absoloutely no sense economically! Especially in the current environment, If you are having a midlife crises and you feel the urge to spend your money on something for gods sakes spend it on something you can see a return on or else go out and blow it in some strip bar somewhere.
Personally I think anyone who pays for there complete training needs there head seriously examined.
Around $50,000 odd for FAA alone, plus loss of earnings for the year or whatever it takes you to complete, then have f'all chance of getting a job at the end of it!
There are enough unemployed Pilots out there as it is.

If you go through with it, you will remember these words of advice when its to late, Your Call!!

[clevenger]

Cheers for the replies

No, no mid life crisis here, I`m only 23, a bit early for that. Just finished university in Dublin. Would take at least two years to accumulate the base capital and then an unhealthy crippling loan to boot. Have about 7 years part time experience working for a giant law firm (did Law in uni) which is enough time to realise that office life is not for me. It goes without saying of course that I love flying. Semi-Carnally.

I`m going into this with my eyes wide open and am all too well aware of the difficulties ever finding a first job, let alone dealing with the after effects of a substantial bank loan. Fortunatley, Uni is free in Ireland so I have no debts and good qualifications to work for the next 26months or so.

any more words o wisdom would be welcome.

[autosync]

Mate, I have known people who took out loans for there Heli training in the past only to go back to work on building sites security guards or whatever work they can get there hands on, for years, so they can start paying back there loans, regretting ever having thought up such ridiculous ideas in the first place.

You should at least wait until you have the full amount and then some, even then you really ought to seriously think is it worth spending such an extreme amount of hard earned cash and going through all the hassle so if you are lucky you can get a job working in some of the worst places in the world, getting treated like S*#t and getting paid in the equivalant of magic beans?

Whatever your decision best of luck with it.

:confused: :confused:

[3top]

I agree with autosync!

If you want to go for it, just for the fun, speak Private License, I say GO FOR IT, IF you have the cash together to spend! If it is not what you wanted, well you will have to drive your old car a while longer.

If you want to go for Commercial, have ALL the money up front - NO LOANS!!! - AND some spare, as it always costs more than you want to believe. THEN you still need the spare to hang around up to 2 years to have a chance at some job. Be very careful where you spend your cash - make sure you have a chance to start with that outfit!!


To the extra forum, no good. Info gets old fast besides our moderators will tell you how to search for the old stuff. If a wannabe comes along and asks he will always get the newest news,....just ask!

3top
:cool:

Been there (the loan BS), done that (tried the cheapest way: first fixed wing then add on helicopter, another BS)!
I was just ucky enough to get away with it! Actually hair raising story......don´t repeat it, you only get away once, and I used that one up!

:E :E :E

[autosync]

Mr Selfish, I take it you own a flight school!
Yeah I bitch and moan and there are plenty of reasons you cannot get your foot in, fortunately for me I have managed to squirm my way in, still getting paid F'all and working my ass off, and no I could not do anything else, but yes I would prefer to work somewhere else!
But it is important for people to know the reality of the world out there, and not swallow the B.S these heli schools keep promising!

[Whirlybird]

As a new instructor I've already been asked for advice on this topic several times by people wanting to become commercial helicopter pilots. I tell them how I think it is...even though it might lose me future students. :( This is how I see it, in the UK at least; I don't know about elsewhere.

When I started, the situation in the UK was that people got a PPL(H), built hours, instructed for a bit, then went off to the North Sea or elsewhere. OK, I know that's an over-simplification, but that was what I was told, and that was what I saw happening. So there were at least instructing jobs available...and a chance to go on from there if you wanted to. Then came JAR, and you needed to get a CPL(H) before you could instruct. But for a short while at least, the North Sea companies were taking newly qualified CPLs. Then came 9/11; the duel qualified airline pilots who lost their jobs went back to the North Sea, who stopped recruiting, so instructors stayed in their jobs, and newly qualified CPLs decided to get to 300 hours somehow and get a FI(R). So instructing jobs became thin on the ground, and everything else dried up completely unless you were very lucky and/or knew the right people. This hasn't changed...it might tomorrow, it might next month, it might next year, it might never!!!!

So I tell people that if they have the money and really want to, go for it, as flying helicopters is great, and if you're determined enough you'll get a job somehow, somewhere, and things will probably change eventually. But to try and do that while repaying even just the interest on a £50,000 loan....NO!!!!

That's how I see it, and I've told it like that twice this week already. So if I've got it wrong, please tell me.

[Robino]

Huge shortage of Heli instructors here in Eire,rely on guys from the UK.Whats the goinn hourly rate at schools in the UK at present.

[clevenger]

Thank you all for the replies.


Why is it that professional helicopter pilots claim exclusivity on poor working conditions? Listening to you all moan about bad pay and your working enviroment make me occasionally want to shake you by your epilettes. Perhaps you are pissed that your mates who did law or accountancy or business in uni are all on fantastic wages by the time they are 27. But in the real working world where most of us live, life is no picnic either.

If I had a euro for each time I was advised to give up this idea I could enroll for my ATPL Cabair tomorrow, and still have enough left for a modest faberge egg collection.

Yes this will not be an easy road, and I plan to have the cash up front, then take out an enormous loan by my standards of about 15K. As for the figures of 50 grand or so, if you are stupid enough to get into that much debt and if a financial institution is also insane enough to lend it to you then you deserve whatever comes your way.

Thanks for all the positve replies

Clevenger

[autosync]

If I had a euro for each time I was advised to give up this idea I could enroll for my ATPL Cabair tomorrow, and still have enough left for a modest faberge egg collection.

Bloody Lawyers, never listen to anyone!!
Good luck with it :p

[Steve76]

... sell your motorbike...
You really must be nuts :ugh:

[charlie_s_charlie]

Clevenger:

My position wasn't too dissimilar - finished my law degree at English uni and at 22 decided flying was for me. Now I'm one year down the line. PM me if I can help you with anything or you want advice about something specific

Good luck!

Charlie

[Watchoutbelow]

Why are there so many Paddy Pilots out there anyway?
They are everywhere.
Last I heard there were barely any Commercial Helis in Ireland, you are going to have an extremely tough time trying to get a job back in Ireland with the massive amount of competion for work.

Have you really thought about this or are you just hearing what you want to hear?

[nulian]

<-- paddy pilot

For me anyway, as much as I'd like to move back to Ireland, I can't see myself doing it.

It's just too expensive to live there these days - even if you're being paid a decent wage.

Just because you're Irish doesn't mean you have to fly only in Ireland =)

[Whirlybird]

clevenger,

You say:

any more words of wisdom would be welcome.

You then complain because people tell it as they see it. Why ask for advice if you don't actually want it? You don't have to agree, or even follow the advice, but to complain that people are being negative when they're giving you the benefit of their experience which you asked for , is hardly fair, now is it?

Good luck with your training.

[Bellthorpe]

"Does anyone not think it strange that on an intro flight an instructor gets a prospective student to try and hover and demo's auto's?????"

I'm not aware of any schools that don't demonstrate autos during a TIF.

[Whirlybird]

Bellthorpe,

AFAIK it's up to the instructor, here at any rate. I've never yet demonstrated an auto on a trial lesson, though I would if someone asked about it. Some instructors do, some don't. You have to let students try to hover, because for most people, that's what helicopter flying is about! If they just wanted to fly, they'd go fixed wing.

[Winnie]

I remember my introflight in an R22 in 1996, what an awsome day for sure!!

I even asked to perform an auto, but more to see what it was like from the front seat, since I had been in the back of a Sea King during a few of them (Scary!)

OVer to the hovering issue, I actually had a student prospect fly with all controls in the hover within the first 30 minutes of flying, actually managing to control the machine! Now the feller was a surgeon, and I guess that helped, but needless to say, I was impressed. However, I would say that he was the exception, rather than the rule. I had a student that needed over 30 hours before he was even remotely able to keep the helicopter in a steady hover, and again, he had limited technical knowledge before he started so he too was the exception rather than the rule. We're all different, so it becomes more of an individual task rather than something that can be generalized.

Here we also train a lot of conversions from "stuck wing" and I find them to be easier to train in some aspects, but they also have lots of "bad" habits for the helicopter world, such as using the "rudders" to assist in turns. Well well, do your best, enjoy your flying and have a good time, don't worry about the small stuff, it will all come eventually!

[Martin1234]

Can anyone please give me an idea if it's likely that "the average 155 h private pilot" will be ready for the JAA CPL-H skill test after the 30 h CPL course?

I've done some training after my PPL but my autos are still straight-in. Is it realistic to learn 180's, touch-down autos in R22 and London area familiarization and get ready for the skill test, all within 30 hours?

All inputs are greatly appreciated.

[helipilotnz]

i sat my cpl at about 160 hours TT and passed. in new zealand we sit our ppl flight test at 50 hrs minimum.
a flight instructor who has delt with flight examiners in the passed should be able to tell you if you are ready. hours are a rough gauge to use as every one is different.
not that i am a big timer but that is what i have found. dont push it and do it when you feel ready(confident)
helipilotnz

[The Nr Fairy]

Martin:

I had a PPL(A) which knocked off 20 hours from the required 185. I got to 135 hours in R22s before I did the modular course, and the 30 hours is plenty, if you a) have a decent instructor and b) have the spare brain capacity to absorb.

It is hard work, but make sure you get good pre-briefs, ask plenty of questions if you're not sure, and get good debriefs.

[Whirlybird]

It took me a few hours more...but I've never yet done anything in aviation in the minimum number of hours. I now accept that I'm a slightly slow learner and budget accordingly. Most people I've talked to have done it in the 30 hours or pretty close.

Unfortunately those who take longer are sometimes reluctant to tell you...something to do with the "I'm a superpilot who knew how to fly before I even got into the aircraft" attitude that seems to prevail throughout aviation. :) It probably won't take you longer, but if it does - hey, you learn more!

[HeliTigg]

Wondering if someone can clarrify something for me:

What can you do with a ATPL that you can't do with a CPL??

I suppose the real question is, what is the point in the CPL?? What does it enable you to do? Is there any point in holding a CPL and not a ATPL?

Tigg:confused:

[Captain Lai Hai]

No weight restrictions with ATPL

[Helinut]

HT,

Well it all depends................

Assuming you mean UK licences:

In the case of licences issued in the UK before the advent of JAR FCL, there was not much difference. They inolved the same ground exams and flight test. Most people got a CPL initially, and then when they got the extra hours required of the various types specified (something like 1,500 PIC if I recall correctly) you gave the CAA £250 and hey presto you had an ATPL(H). The ATPL(H) allowed you to be the captain of a two crew helicopter (i.e. big), which more or less meant OFFSHORE. You can, in theory, have either one with or without an instrument rating.

If you are talking about JAR FCL licences then the difference is greater, and the consequences more profound. In theory, you need to do different ground exams for the CPL and ATPL - the latter being more extensive. In practice, the whole thing is made more difficult because the helicopter business is so small that no one has effectively bothered to set up a CPL ground syllabus/exam school for heles. So you have to do the ATPL ground stuff.
When it comes to the flying, the major difference is that to get an ATPL(H) you MUST have an IR and you must have substantial multi crew experience, before you can get given the ATPL(H)

Broadly speaking, if you want to fly offshore with an JAR FCL licence you will need an ATPL(H) (including the IR). It will be "frozen" until you get the necessary number of flying hours.

The only problem is that no one with any sense is prepared to pay the vast sum of money needed to get a frozen ATPL(H). I forecast that the rules will change at some point, but in the mean time there is a big problem - the whole edifice is not really viable, especially with a contracting UK offshore sector.

If you want to fly onshore, get a CPL(H). The vast majority of onshore ops are single crew. That then leaves you with the problem of acquiring lots of hours, so that an operator will trust you with his expensive helicopter and litigous passengers, and his insurer will cover the aircraft when under your command.

The answer to gaining hours probably still lies with instruction, but it is more expensive than it used to be.

[Head Bolt]

Helinut has got it absolutely right.

In the UK, the ONLY need for a JAR ATPL is offsore work. A CPL will cover most things you may wish to do onshore, and the addition of an IR will also open up the corporate charter side to cover alomost everything.

Fact is, under JAR the requirements for an ATPL are simply hideous in terms of cost, and only those pursuing a long term career offshore would need it.

If offshore is not your bag, get a CPL and see what develops from there.

[Helibelly]

If you've got an JAR CPL/IR then accorrding to the man at the CAA it's the same as the ATPL to employers (if you've got the hours). If you want a ATPL you also need a 'civil multi-pilot type' on your licence, so the Seaking rating I opened my licence with doesn't count! And if you belive that employers don't see a difference between a JAR CPL/IR and a ATPL then have a look at the adverts in the back of flight international when they appear. Plus if you've got a UK ATPL without an IR or civil muti-pilot type rating watch out when your licence needs renewing you'll be in for a suprise :(

[Thumper2]

OK, couple of us here are curious as to the steps and what all is involved in getting a JAR ATPL(H) when you already hold a Canadian ATPL(H) with over 500 hr IR, over 1000 hrs Heavy twin, current, 250 hrs night. Experience is not the issue just the steps involved to do the license in your spare time.

Or can anyone point us in the direction (email) to an inspector type that could clarify this for us, please.

And also the FAA ATPL(H) for any of the South of 49 lads, is it just a commercial ride + ATPL(H) exam?

Thanks for your time

[buttline]

Thumper,

You should find what you need here -

http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/fcl/document.asp?groupid=292

I think you'd have to do all 14 JAR ATPL ground exams and take the CPL/IR flight test but would only be required to do training 'at flight schools discression' for the tests - but I've also heard that some dispensations are possible for lots and lots of hours.

[Thomas coupling]

Helibelly:

I'm sorry, I don't follow what you said.
I have a Seaking on my licence and it counts for multi crew time. Also last month I renewed my UK ATPL(H) and my new one shows exactly the same upon return.... what is the issue?

[Helibelly]

TC: I'd be intrested to see how the CAA are treating you, my licence was a JAR one from the start (via the QSP route), but if you got yours back after renewal as a JAR ATPL from a UK ATPL I assume you've got your IR and a civil multi-pilot type, if not I'd love to hear from you cos if your only multi-pilot type is the seaking like mine is then my long standing argument with the powers that be is suddenly strenghtened, (but then again sometimes it's best not to rock the boat too hard!).

Cheers

[Thomas coupling]

Ah, there's the crux...I got it back as sent - UK CAA ATPL(H). Not JAA.(i don't have an IR.
Thanks.

[Officedesk]

Always wanted to do my PPLH. I currently have over 9000 hours fixed wing (mainly airline).

Anyone suggest where the cheapest place worldwide where I can do my training and approximately how much it would be.

Don't want to move my career into choppers but am simply keen to anjoy flying again with something new.

Thanks

[The Nr Fairy]

This is the old "piece of string" question.

Your answer should really be determined not by where you want to learn, but by where you want to fly. Learn somewhere close, at least in the same regulatory system, and you'll save bucketloads.

On second thoughts, you're an airline pilot. Learn where you want, and pay the extra to convert to a UK licence !

[Autorotate]

With the exchange rate being the major factor then I would look at New Zealand, Australia and South Africa. Not necesarily in that order.

There are some good schools in all places and also some ****ty ones so buyer beware.

:E

[moosp]

... and those that consider price only are that mans lawful prey...

Office, like you I fly planks for a living and started (H) later in life. I had lessons in the UK, USA, (CA, GA, MS,) and Aus (SYD, BNE, PER) before finally completing the PPL in UK.

As Autorotate says the schools vary, but the bad ones don't last long. Each prang pushes their insurance up so high that they go out of business. Remember you are joining a school not a club, so treat each that way. (I stole that last sentence from a pprune contributor... good advice)

I enjoyed the Aus flying the best, CASA is better organised than many people make out and the requirements are testing but fair. Cross country's are outstanding. A small world of (H) instructors down there so most keep a high standard with the peer pressure. Weather is usually great and the price is reasonable, also for the accommodation.

From my small sample, USA schools vary more than Aus or UK. If you get a good one they are some of the best anywhere. Legislation is OK and you get eerily left alone by ATC and instructors at an early stage. Briefing and debriefing are not emphasized as much as under the UK/Aus system which I missed. The check ride seems a big jump up from the training whereas the other countries it felt like the next lesson.

UK has the weather factor although you'd be surprised how few days are lost to it. Make sure your aircraft has a heater... The price gets to you too, but if you add on your cost of accommodation and car hire etc abroad you may find it approaching the same total.

And BTW, take a pack of sliced lemons with you for each lesson to take the silly grin off your face after each flight. :D

FWIW

[Up & Away]

Look for the Best place for you ..not the cheapest for you pocket!!

topilot or topprune

:cool:

[DBChopper]

Officedesk

If you're based in Surrey you could do a lot worse than to pop along to Redhill, arguably one of the most heli-oriented airfields in the country (marked helistrips, three hover squares, two areas of sloping ground, one hover circle, two confined areas, switched-on ATC...) and a good fleet on which to learn at LHC.

[helislave]

Hi all, apologies if this is not the correct forum. It's my first (second attempt at post but then i lost all my text grrr).

:hmm:

I would like to invite any comments, suggestion or advice on what the 'future prospects are of employment'...ok i know that this has most likely been covered more than once before...blah blah...yawn. However, i am looking at financing myself and therefore have to either justify to myself the investment, and perhaps also to whomever lends me the finance. After all many people start new businesses every year, so why can i not see myself as a business, but only if the return on investment is sufficient enough.

I have read a lot of the posts on here, and through my own research figure that it's no easy ride, hard work and dedication are a requirement, and i know that most insurance companies and operators won't even entertain you for initial employment under half a million hours or so...ok a little sarcasm, but surely one needs a sense of humour in order to attempt a challenging career as such as this? but you get my point :p

I have procrastinated long enough, 10 years or so, saying to myself, 'oh this is not the right time for helo driver employment, let me wait a while longer', but when is it ever? I don't wish to work in a office staring at the same scenery/face for the next x years..i'm sure you all know what i mean. Plank driver doesn't interest me either, i don't consider it challenging enough, who flies it anyway? Perhaps the software that the Aero engineers have designed? OK perhaps private flying is more enjoyable.


So to get to the point, would a Masters Degree in Aerospace Engineering benefit me at all, in addition to a CPL(H) IR? What are the employment alternatives/advantages of possessing both qualifications, if there are any at all?

Ok comments would be useful even the not so nice ones, hey i did say one needed a sense of humour right?

thanks in advance

[Thomas coupling]

Helislave: you're quite right, waiting never solved anything. If you've got it in your blood, and it strikes me you've looked at this issue long enough to have had an infusion by now:)
then come on in, the water is luke warm and often murky, but you won't drown!!!

Industry is putting out signals that the latest up and coming "attachment" to one's portfolio in aviation, is the Aviation Management degree.
[As an aside - ab initio plank drivers are being positively immersed in the subject during training].
I saw an ad the other day for students to undergo a full aviation management degree which included a full JAR CPL(IR) and eventually an ATPL.
I think this might be a better vehicle for you if you intend to climb the management ladder.
If you go thru with your engineering degree, it certainly wouldn't be wasted (a very respectable qual) but if your leaning is to actual flying, then it won't be much use. (Unless you want to move sideways into engineering at some time.
Actually getting a helo job with a degree as a bunk up, is a non starter, our (helo) industry isn't as streamlined as the FW world. All we want is hours, lots of them and good quality ones, too.

Jump!!!!!

[SASless]

I would suggest a Third Grade education would suffice....from the quality of managers the helicopter world seems to draw. So long as you have a complete lack of conscience and a heart of stone, you would do nicely. By all means....do not take any touchy-feely kinds of courses.....one must not get close to the hired hands....

Oh! Silly me....just kidding of course! :{

[helislave]

Thanks both, much appreciated.

TC, yeah i have also seen these combined courses too, only wish i would have seen them earlier. Maybe i should explain, i already have a degree in Aerospace Engineering d'oh..(perhaps i should get myself a english degree instead!) joking aside. But these degrees were not around when i decided to do my degree.

Many thanks for your words of encouragement, also to you SASless, although i don't think management would be my thing, perhaps only when i fail a medical or more likely lose my marbles would i consider management. But for me helo driving is the thing...if funds allowed i'd do it for free...but they don't so i have to make an informed decision.

Would you think that a helo manufacturer might prefer an Aero Degree and and a CPL (H), surely that has to be an advantage, or would they still require zillions of hours too?

Why the subject is raised, why is it that the helo world is seemingly well behind the plank world when it comes to career progression and the like? After all, helos have only been around 50 odd years or so...and the leaps and bounds made in helo technology is far more than in planks for the same period of time, particularly in materials.

[Thomas coupling]

Helislave, when you state "helicopter manufacturer" does this imply that you want to work for one. I was under the impression you simply wanted to fly helos for a helicopter operator?

If you want to fly for someone else, then a degree won't really improve your chances, I believe. By the time you've done your masters, you would have probably found a job and started hour building.....

Get on with it! :ok:

[helislave]

Cheers TC, i was just thinking that a Manufacturer would perhaps need/use/benefit from a CPL and an Aero engineering Degree. Surely it has to be better than just one on it's own, depending on the job of course? But to be honest i am just trying to cover all of my bases, and therefore trying to see if other avenues of employment are open to me. So flying for an operator or Manufacturer is pretty much the same for me, as long as i fly!

Mind you i have an Aero Degree, and am in the process of looking for a job in that too. So if i did get a CPL and end up in the same boat of looking for a job, i would be no worse off, (except down 50k or so) so what am i waiting for!!!

thanks for your continued support...

[Shawn Coyle]

The presence of a degree is a good thing. It opens other doors for you that you may not have considered that might be related to helicopter flying, and means that you won't be b-s'd when someone starts to talk rubbish about any one of a number of things related to performance or handling.
I find it interesting that most of the major FW airlines won't hire someone without a degree, but a large majority of (civil only) helicopter guys seem to have a high school education.
(they are mostly very good pilots, and often don't want to do anything except fly, but it does limit them if something happens to their medical or the industry goes flat, or someone invents the anti-gravity ray...)
Not sure that the Master's degree is of much immediate assistance (only because I lack one meself?)

[Rich Lee]

"So to get to the point, would a Masters Degree in Aerospace Engineering benefit me at all, in addition to a CPL(H) IR? What are the employment alternatives/advantages of possessing both qualifications, if there are any at all?"

Looking at the question from a different perspective, there are no disadvantages related to possessing both qualifications. If you have the time, money and intelligence to pursue a Master Degree, you should. Employment alternatives are greater for those with a Masters Degree in "anything" compared to those without. It is a key that will open a door that you may one day wish to pass through.

[diethelm]

"Knowledge is Good"

And here is another angle for using knowledge earned in the University to accomplish the goal of flying these things.

Go to the University, work on the Masters, meet attractive rich lady with a good family who owns large business, work for the family business and buy your own helicopter you can fly around any time you want.

[RDRickster]

A degree that can serve you in aviation and other arenas will provide a safety net. God forbid you have an ailment where you loose your medical or have an eye injury; nevertheless, a more universal degree may provide more alternatives for you if the need should arise. Goes to the "never put all your eggs in one basket" philosophy.

[helislave]

Shawn,

This is what i was thinking, it would open other doors that may not be available to pilots only but what exactly?. Hence the need to know the final cash at the end of the day, i need to finance it somehow, you know what banks are like, they need guarantees.

Rick/Diethelm/RD

I already have a Masters degree, that was my cop-out because money was scarce and so were the flying jobs at the time..viable alternative though and didn't want to do FW. :yuk: I have also investigated the possibility of finding a rich older lady...my degree was seemingly easier! ;) Although i have a degree hasn't really done much for me at the moment, i'm unemployed! Bloody aerospace industry - maybe i should heed the advice from RD 'eggs in one basket syndrome' maybe it's time i pursued my snowboard teaching or a sailing job...nah..i like both but who am i kidding!

Perhaps i should have rephrased the question: 'would a CPL(H) in addition to my aero degree benefit me in getting a better, more lucrative Engineering job?' Any comments, thoughts?

[Heli vision]

helislave

can I perhaps give you a slightly more cynical alternative?

I agree with Shawn and Rich and what others have said, education per se is a good thing.

But, I think you have to really look at your own ambitions and motivation.

In your last post you ask us to look at it from a different angle: will a CPL(H) help you get a better engineering job?

It seems to me there is confusion in your own mind about what you really want to do. The bottom line is, if you want to fly helicopters, you've got to get the licences, and start working! In the UK this would mean paying for 300 hundred hours R22 time then working as an instructor. After 1000 hours you'll maybe be eligible for some ad hoc charter work if you get yourself some turbine time.

But you'll have to dedicate yourself full time to being a pilot, not an engineer.

As for working for a manufacturer, well we're mostly into the realms of test flying there, and Shawn and Rich are the guys to ask about that, but you aren't going to walk into that with your Masters and a CPL(H).

I think you need to ask yourself what means the most to you, the academic side of things, or being a pilot. Remember, there just aren't any guarantees, and as a pilot you'll be up against guys who want to do nothing else but fly that helicopter. They are truly dedicated! Are you?

[helislave]

Heli Vision i think you are right. I am confused, between a nicely paid fairly secure Engineering job (which i have yet to find. The same goes for engineering in terms of experience as well as flying, it has to be the right kind of experience to get the good jobs) and the risk, insecurity and less well paid but pleasure of a flying position, which i wanted first incidentally.

Just thought i'd ask if the two together would be of any benefit. Perhaps Shawn, Rich you could give me some pointers?

Hard work and putting the effort in i don't have a problem with, it's the lack of cash i have a problem with, which the engineering pays! :mad:

And i think secretively (no longer) the flying test job is the one i ultimately want..but you're right it ain't gonna happen with 0 hrs!!

ta very much..i'm glad i came to this forum, it's got me thinking about stuff i would never have before...:ok:

[Rich Lee]

Helislave,

Many years ago two young Warrant Officers in Vietnam (Rich Lee and Pete Stormer) shared a common dream. Neither of us had money, connections or education. We both became successful test pilots by two entirely different tracks. Pete followed a military path while I followed a civil path. Pete became a respected instructor at the US Navy Test Pilot School. I work for Boeing.

Education? I will tell you that neither of us has ever stopped learning. The pursuit of our dreams involved constant learning. Even today neither of us has arrived, a test pilot never does. I am always in school. Always taking tests.

A Masters in Engineering is an excellent first step. Now it is time to focus on your flying. The beginning in any career is difficult and a beginning in the field of test perhaps even more so. I can tell you that it becomes easier with time and experience.

There are ways. Can you join the military? Have you considered employment with some other government agency? Can you become associated with a school or university? Do you belong to any professional organizations or societies?

Most people focus on why they cannot be successful. I have always figured out how to be successful. If I were a test pilot starting in the US today I would begin with a BA or BS in any science. I would take any job to pay for flying lessons. Once certificated I would virtually live at the airport and take every opportunity (paid or unpaid) to get flight time. I would then enroll in the National Test Pilot School and learn the ropes. Then I would apply for the FAA and let them bankroll the rest of my education while I paid off existing debt. Using my FAA connections I would secure a private sector job (assuming I wasn't getting job satisfaction from the FAA).

There are many other ways of becoming a test pilot. I have one friend who started his own engineering company to become a test pilot. He looked around, found a product that could be improved, secured funding and started making money. He owns his own helicopter, is a test pilot and is wealthy.

Think--I am sure you can envision a path appropriate for you.

[Genghis the Engineer]

On the subject of degrees and engineering jobs.

As you've probably noticed, Engineering jobs aren't easy to find. If you find one, you'll also discover that they aren't all that well paid, the good news is that they are generally quite secure once you've got one since once you've learned the products and system of a company they will generally work quite hard (short of actually paying more) to keep you.

Both flying and engineering jobs need two things (1) the right qualifications, and (2) the right experience - albeit that the proportions can vary a little.

There is however some good news - if you want to work in aviation, you can to a fair extent read-across the experience between the two (when you've enough of both, you might hit the jackpot and be allowed to do some test flying).

I suspect that like me, you are interested in both the engineering and flying sides - so try and get the minimum qualifications that you need on both sides - a BEng, MEng or MSc in aero-eng, and a CPL(H) being where you're looking. In the meantime, grab all the flying time you can when you can, and engineering experience when you can't (flying experience is always harder to get - there are ways to gain real engineering experience, albeit possibly unpaid, if you search).

Eventually, all going well, you'll hit the jackpot.

G


(and, as Rich says, if you want to be wealthy, quit working for other people and start on your own - working in aviation is fun but you'll not retire a millionaire.)

[helislave]

Thanks to you both for your words of encouragement and wisdom. It is truely inspiring...

Gengis, this is what i am thinking, it is a long term prospect, but hopefully i will hit the jackpot, i have to be better placed with a Masters and a CPL(H) combined.

Rich, as far as the military are concerned, i am well passed that age, as an aside, i applied for flight school for the army, 6 months too old, same for the Navy and the airforce! Government agency, is a possibility i have yet to pursue, university, again well passed that stage. We are talking the UK here, the Alumni network is not so well advanced, and well to be honest the chances of a university havng a flying school are well almost zero.

It is interesting that if you were doing it now you would go for the engineering degree first then the flying job, well that certainly gives me some hope, i have the Masters already!

I hadn't considered looking at enrolling at the test pilot school. But i think you really hit on a point there, 'connections', at the moment i don't have any, i am not known or placed in the industry per se, and that's certainly a place i could start.

The only reservation i have is getting funding, the only way i can do it, is a remortgage, big gamble huh?

Both, thank you so much. Any jobs going?;) :D :p One has to ask!

[Genghis the Engineer]

You may be in luck, possible the most highly respected place in the UK to do a Masters in an aeronautical (technical) subject is Cranfield (http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/) .

They do have a flying school on site...

http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/alumni/graduation03/images/frontpage.jpg

I believe somebody once told me that the rates are subsidised for current students at the college of Aeronautics although am not sure either how much, or whether they do rotary courses.

G

[count_duckula]

Hi all

I am a new member after some people on another web site recommended this one.
I have done a search and read some old posts about becoming a commercial pilot, and to be honest I am feeling a little disheartened, I am currently thinking of getting a PPL and then a CPL with the then get a job flying rich people about....
I know welcome to the real word, but what are the chances of getting a pilots job in the real word, it is a bleak as I am led to believe ? or is it a case of you will be okay in the end.

It is a lot of money to spend and I don't mind borrowing it if I can pay it back at the end.

Any comments welcome


Malc

[NickLappos]

Duck,

There are two kinds of people, those who do what they want, and are happy, and those who get out their calculators and decide what is the rational course.

Do you love flying? Do you want to fly every day? Then become a pro pilot. If being a groundpounder and drilling assholes in hobby horses quite satisfactory for you, then don't.

Real pilots (this forum is full of them) know when they first broke ground, and then smelled a bit of avgas, they were hooked. For them, the real question is "Do you want to fly?" When I was 8, I was hooked, and that was that. How about you?

[count_duckula]

I know what you mean about wanting to do it, I have lived near an airfield all my life and have always wanted to fly a helicopter, I am getting to a point in my life where I want to do a job I would love, but also I am a realist with family who can afford the wrong option.

Malc

[moosp]

Duck/Malc

There are financial risks and requirements on the road to self sufficiency in rotor aviation. Your last included "but also I am a realist with family who can afford the wrong option."

Does that mean that you are seriously financially independent or did you miss off the apostrophe t on the word before afford? It is important.

BTW for others, isn't this forum great? It's like a guy writes he wants to become a software engineer and Bill Gates replies.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Duck,

How old are you, if your past the age of 35yrs then its possibly too late, but if your young, and fit and have good eyesight and have a yearning to get some air under your Arse, and if you have no wife, no mortgage, no HP or in general no earthly tie's ,
THEN MY FRIEND GRAB SOME WITH BOTH HANDS, but dont faffe about do it, you can't play half way.

If you have money your half way there, if not join HM Forces and get into the AAC ( Army Air Corp) they will pay you at the same time as your training,

if Uncle Tone is still the boss you'll probably have to go to some nasty places and some nasty unwashed louts may want to throw lead and iron at you, BUt hey, you'll be flying,

then you'll be able to come this sort of thread and talk in riddles and shortcuts like most other forces bods do, But Hey you'll be a flyer.

:ok:

[Hughesy]

Duck, if your keen, then go for it mate!:ok:
Getting that first job won't be easy, but if your keen and commit yourself then that first all important job WILL happen. It might be later rather then sooner, but if your "in the right place at the right time" it could very well be sooner.

Vfrpilotpb is right though, if you want it, grab it with both hands, and off course don't let go if things get tough.
If you get into it, Good luck with your flying.;) :ok:

[count_duckula]

Thanks all

Moosp you are correct I forgot the ' .

Just for the record I am 30 and think I am fit etc.
I will have to sit down and have a serious think, it would be a
amazing job if I could get it, but like most people I am cautious of change.


Malc

[Hughesy]

By the way ducky ole boy, ( 30 is not old at all mate!), have you had a trial flight? If not, 30 mins to an hour's flight will be all you need to get hooked, like what happened to me and many others.
:p :ok:

[helislave]

Hi Count,

just to help you along too, i am sure you have probably scoured this whole site, i certainly did, but have you checked out these following threads,

'Is a degree and advantage',
'Working for nothing',
'CPL training in NZ',

they contain some useful information and advice from those i the know. It certainly helped me.

At least it helps in knowing i am not alone in my pursuit of flight! Although you are a potential competitor for a job. :p i have the bug too but not the cash, that 45 min trial flight certainly did it for me, but i knew anyway i wanted to fly. No doubt!.

Hey maybe we can start up some organisation somehow to help newbbie pilots get 'off the ground' :)

oh yeah, 30 ain't too old, i'm approaching 32...s**t i better do something before i reach 35 hey vfr :eek: ;)

[Whirlybird]

A couple of things come to mind...

Maybe you should at least get a trial lesson. Of course, it may get you hooked, like all of us. But amazing though it may seem, some people don't like flying helicopters. One fixed wing pilot friend of mine tried it and wasn't keen. And I had a very keen sounding student who disappeared after a trial lesson...although of course maybe she didn't like me and went elsewhere. :(

You talk about "wanting to fly rich people about". Don't we all!!! Which means there aren't enough of those sort of jobs to go round. I think if you did a survey, you'd find most of the people on this forum, and in the helicopter industry generally, were doing far less glamorous (and more dangerous) jobs - instructing, the North Sea oil rigs, the police, etc.

If you love helicopter flying because you love helicopter flying, go for it! If not, there are probably better ways to earn a better living

[count_duckula]

Thanks for in advice you are correct about the trail flights I have got the info for them already, I think once I start I won't stop, so I want to be sure before I start.

Thanks for the topics helislave I had already seen them but thanks anyway.

Malc

[Crashondeck]

A good number of the people on this forum were in your shoes at some point in the not too distance past. I was too - I took the leap and it eventually worked out for me.

I took it one step at a time and only worried about getting a job once I actually had the right rating. If I had worried about getting a job when I started my PPL, I would have never made it.

It seems that the employment merry go round is cyclical - feast or famine. When I was doing my instructor's rating, I could have got a job in the North Sea, but I didnt have a CPL. When I got my CPL, there were no NS jobs. A year later and I got a job. It seems we are at the bottom end of the wheel at the moment, but who can say what next year will bring.

In short go for it, spend some time instructing - its a great apprenticeship, but dont get hung up on the job situation just yet. But it is well worth having a plan B - dont give up the day job just yet - you can do all your training part time!

Good Luck and enjoy your flying

COD

[RDRickster]

Would have... could have... should have. If you fly helicopters, at least that is one item you can scratch off your list of "I've always wanted to do that." Besides, how cool is it to become a helicopter pilot? A rare and daring breed for certain. :cool:

Nevertheless, I have to agree with your cautious approach and applaud your necessity for long term planning. I'm 33 and started flying when I was 31 years old. For me, I definately had to consider the results of a cost benefit analysis. After all, your mortgage, child's college fund, and other bills won't take a hiatus during the time you dedicate for training. :mad:

However, I am NOT a professional pilot. Therefore, my advice is slanted because I took a different path. I aspire to become a professional pilot (at least a part time instructor). Believe me, I would LOVE to be one, but the reality of my personal situation is different from those starting a new career. Specifically, I was able to keep my day job! ;)

I'm not a doctor or lawyer making big bucks, but I have a comfortable living as an IT Systems Engineer. So, I am gradually building my hours, learning absolutely everything I possibly can. This is a very slow path, and I'll never be more than a part-time instructor (if that). :sad:

When I started on my PPL, I did take a lot of time from work because I felt that it was important to fly 3-5 times a week in the beginning. After my PPL, I went to the factory safety course and participate in other safety training where possible (i.e. FAA Wings Safety Program). Now, I only fly 2-3 times per month! I would love to fly more, but this is the best of both worlds (for me). :ok:

[AlphaGolfLima]

helislave wrote: [...] Hey maybe we can start up some organisation
somehow to help newbbie pilots get 'off the ground' [...]

I think this is indeed a pretty fascinating idea - I myself have thought about
something like that a while ago.
Maybe we could all together try to look in deeper detail into such a concept ?
I would really be interested in your thoughts regarding this idea - Even if
this turns out to be only a "mind game"...

There are certainly many things to take into consideration - and many
drawbacks - but also some advantages. When I thought about such an institution
I came up with a concept where those people successful in aviation support
newbies trying get a foot into the door. There would have to be some kind
of 'generational contract'. In order not to depend on large sums of
individual donations one would need a large pool of independent supporters who
are willing to contribute only a very small donation (but steadily): possibly 'well established'
aviators who want to support 'newbies' - while a newbie could apply for support
with that said (imaginary) institution for financial support regarding a career
in aviation, the applicant would have to accept the obligation to pay back (at least
part of) the credit provided by 'our organisation' as soon as this is financially
possible-a long term commitment. That way the 'pool of supporters' would be kind of
"self-refreshing".
Certainly, that would require a certain likelyhood of the applicant to
successfully pursuit a career in aviation-hence, some kind of assessment would
need to take place in order to decide for support.
Although I don't know of the beaurocratic requirements for such an institution
I don't think that this should be a major obstacle, since we are certainly
talking about a "non-profit" organization. Even if such an organization
helps only half a dozen people per year with their career it would be worth it.
Further income could be generated by advertisements and the like - maybe YOU have
additional suggestions ?
I would really be willing to donate my spare time working out a concept and possibly
even implementing a basic frame of such an idea. I am confident that with the support
and discussion here, one could really make that idea grow and take shape.

I hope that many people feel encouraged to contribute to such an idea with their
comments and suggestions - even if it's just to illustrate the unlikelyhood for such a
project to ever function properly. ;-)

Maybe such a topic deserves its own thread ?

We'll see ;-)

regards

AGL

[RDRickster]

As a low-time pilot with no real world experience in aviation, I'm not qualified to offer any advice on AGL's proposition. Nevertheless, I do have an example of a similar organization in a different industry that may provide a few avenues for consideration. I'll try to summarize the concept for all.

OK, think outside of aviation for the next few moments...

In the IT industry, it is usually important to be certified in a particular discipline. For example, many network engineers are Microsoft Certified Systems Engineers (MCSE). Well, after the IT industry started taking off (several years ago - before the .com failures), there was a sudden surge of MCSE's. Basically, the IT industry experienced a sudden inflow of "paper MCSE's." This meant that many people took the exams for certification, but had no real world experience (kind of like the new pilot). Of course, you couldn't really get a job without the certification, so it was a Catch-22 situation (kind of like the new pilot).

Anyway, a group of IT business owners contacted all the major technology vendors (Novell, Microsoft, Unix, Cisco, etc) and created a working group for a new certification and new standards. After several YEARS of effort, new standards were agreed upon to establish a "field certification." This was a series of hands-on exams that elevated successful candidates above the folks that just had the book knowledge (paper MCSE's). It proved they had the ability to work independantly and solve complex problems without a stack of references to rely on.

As part of that practice, a curriculum was developed to help train people new to the IT industry. Basically, this working group helped to groom IT newbies to work in a professional arena and on large enterprise systems. The field certification was extremely challenging, as it should be. However, it gave the prospective employer good reason to choose this person and pay him a decent salary.

OK, put your aviation hat back on...

I'm not familiar with PHA and what they offer. Also, this has NOTHING to do with Unions. What I'm suggesting is the creation and management of an independant, non-profit, agency for helicopter pilots that is SOLEY focused on a new helicopter certification. The purpose would be to raise the proficiency standards for the professional pilot... the true believer.

JAA, FAA, and others have government standards. Nevertheless, what is stoping professional pilots from adding to the standards and creating a non-governmental certification program? Newbie pilots who complete or meet these future standards may be viewed differently by prospective employers. It would be easy to establish a mentorship training program for newbies that show promise from their basic training (score well on written exam, practical, oral, written endorsement from their CFI, interview process, etc).

Now, I know that many of the helicopter companies have their own safety and training programs. Why can't this be standardized to teach at least the same fundamentals throughout the industry? For example, Rich Lee (forgive me for offering you up without consultation) would be a great candidate to Chair "risk management" standards as part of this working group. My point is that this might be an opportunity for you pro's to share your real world experience, insights, wisdom, and knowledge with the rest of us who are just starting out. Instead of a "one-on-one" mentorship program, an association or organization can standardize and manage accelerated training and pilot techniques that could lead to some kind of non-governmental certification. Proper management and support from key industry leaders could make this new certification very prestigious.

Three things would need to happen for this certification to be accepted and recognized as a "real achievement." 1) The standards should be VERY challenging and difficult in order for it to mean anything. 2) Continuing education requirements should be mandatory to maintain certification. 3) This non-profit agency should be strictly focused on the standards, development, and training programs. You MUST have acceptance and support from industry leaders, so don't get involved with anything other than to develop sound methods to make "good pilot better."

Is that too daffy?

[Ascend Charlie]

AGL -

Your wonderful idea already exists. it is called the military forces.

Large numbers of people (taxpayers) pay money regularly (tax) to keep it going. It is administered by Blunties in the armed forces.

Suitably keen applicants who want to fly are interviewed and chosen for their likelihood of succeeding(recruits). During the course, they are assessed for progress and if not up to speed, are scrubbed.

Those who succeed must spend a certain time in the job to return the investment, and they too pay their taxes to help the next lot get through.

AGL, I am not being cynical, but think about the size of the organisation you will need - the source of the income, the people administering it, the people choosing who will benefit from it, assessing the standards, scrubbing the failures (and coping with potential lawsuits) and so on.

An "apprentice" scheme has long been touted, and I as a director of a flying company, I often was approached by applicants, but the thing that stopped me from doing it was the number of keen students I had seen who were never going to measure up to commercial standards. Nice enough people, and able to reach the MINIMUM standard set by CASA, but not the sort of pilot I would hire.
:(

[Whirlybird]

Do you lot read the other forums? The PPRuNe Fund was started up for those who had been successful to help wannabes. I think it's been airline wannabes so far, but if someone had a word with PPRuNe PoP.....

[helislave]

Firstly,

Apologies to count for going off his topic...

Thanks for AGL on picking up on my idea and expanding it somewhat i too had a similar thought, non-profit too. maybe we should get together or something. Whirlybird, maybe you are right too, we should perhaps talk to PPRUNE to expand the rotary bit. Any ideas how we should do that?

Second, Acsend, i see your point about there being an organisation already called the military, but why should these people get all of the perks? And not only that some people are too old, like me and Count, some people don't like the military way of things, some people are pacifists and would never do it, and even though there is unique training in certain aspects for the military, i hear that some companies (in and out of aviation) don't like the ex-military way of doing things (I'm not saying all etc before anybody jumps down my throat, and it's the exception rather than the rule).

Thirdly, it is true that flying training organisations will train anybody with a slight interlect (min GCSE's in the UK) and over 18 and with the cash to burn. But are these the correct pilots anyway. I'm refering mainly to fixed wing training here, but i'm sure you've all read articles about the quality of fixed wing pilots entering the industry etc. I know that some companies/airlines do screening and pyscometric tests and the like, but not really in the early stages unless they are sponsored. But that's fixed wing! Why not raise the standard and awareness of rotary operations, and make the perception to Joe Public that helos are the dog's cahoonas and the not noisy play things for the rich and famous. (see this week's flight international). If we want the helo to not disappear all together we need to pull together, and work together and that can be achieved by a process of education and reeducation for both pilots and the public alike! I also am aware of organisations already like BHAB, EHA and HAI, but they're not really suited for newbbie wannabies.

As RD said 'ok i'll paraphrase'

Let's get some standardisation, above and beyond what the authorities say. I know the FAA/JAA and the rest are trying to do this, but let's face it, they all hate helos, they are a nuisance to them and only put up with them because they have to (this should invite a few comments), and ATC cannot get to grips with the flexibility of helicopter operations.


RD:

Proper management and support from key industry leaders could make this new certification very prestigious.
This statement is a very true one, it raises everybodies game and awareness, it may even increase salaries across the board and also get the respect owed to helo pilots that seemingly are only given to plankers (don't have a go at me on this, you know what i am talking about), and more importantly it may improve safety as a result, therefore it makes helos more attractive. We all know that safety rates for helos are worse than for planks for the equivalent number of hours, but we also know the reason why, it's the field of operations in which helos fly, but Joe Public doesn't know this! They just see the statistics!

AGL. so maybe if you want to discuss this idea a little further i'd be happy too, give me a PM and we can sketch out some sort of idea, and then perhaps post it on here to see what people think, and get some feedback and input. It maybe a crock of preverbial but we have to start somewhere, and i do think it's about time WE helo lovers pulled together and spoke with one voice and get some more exposure!

I would suggest to anybody that you get this weeks' Flight, (i am not advertising), particularly the comment but it certainly is an interesting read, not only that there's an nice article on the A109 power too.

[RDRickster]

Let me just say that my earlier example took YEARS of effort from the working group that eventually formed a legitimate committee. In fact, when Microsoft was first approached, they said, "no - we already have certifications." However, after things got moving along, they desperately wanted a seat on the council. It won't be easy to accomplish, but it will be achievable and will benefit the entire industry (especially new pilots). Let me know if there is anything I can contribute. I guess we've hi-jacked Duck's thread long enough; time to start a new one.

[Whirlybird]

I've emailed a link to this thread to InfinRetirement.

[Robbo Jock]

It would be vital to get the insurance companies to accept the certificate in lieu of flight time.

Having spent considerable time, effort and (inevitably) money on getting the "PPRuNe Class A heli-ops" certificate with "Vertical Reference" and "VIP Pampering" endorsements, the newbie would be awfully cheesed off if s/he still couldn't get a job because operators can't affordably insure aircraft flown by pilots with less than umpty squillion hours P1.

[RDRickster]

Agreed - insurance seems to drive everything. We'll have to get their buy in, find out what statistics they are looking at to make their decisions, and include additional training to make them feel more comfortable. For the insurance companies, it is a win because they will be more comfortable with safer and better trained / qualified / certified pilots.

There are some interesting U.S. statistics that I'll share below. I researched a while back and believe they have some relevance. Historically, the FAA has been WRONG about most pilot projections they've made since 1955! (I wonder how much we pay in taxes to get the wrong answer each year for the last 48 years).

For example, in 1995, the FAA predicted that the number of Student Certificates would decline from 100,000 in 1995 to about 90,000 in 2000. Here are the actual statistics (in approximate terms - just to give you an idea):

1995 - 110,000
1996 - 115,000
1997 - 150,000
1998 - 130,000
1999 - 155,000
2000 - 140,000

I made this graph in a hurry, so it isn't exactly perfect and doesn't show any of the other statistics. Also, I didn't get any data beyond 2000. The green line shows New Student Certificates and the red line shows the incorrect FAA predictions.

http://www.verticalreference.com/images/heloCPLGraph.gif

The FAA accuracy regarding most of their reports ranges from NEGATIVE 19% to NEGATIVE 37 percent! In another example, new students actually increased by 2.5% between the 1st quarter of last year and the 1st quarter of this year (source: Williamson Study). The FAA predicted a 4.5% decline, which is obviously contraindicated.

Also, we had a strong economic recovery in FY 2003, and most aviation economist predict a moderate growth between 2003 and 2013. That prediction was made before many of the larger airlines went bankrupt, but I believe it was based on the anticipated NEED for aviation resources (pilots, aircraft, and new missions). Of course, this doesn't account for the student drop out rate, but it is a useful guide.

On another note, here is some information I pulled from the Bureau of Economic Analysis (part of Department of Commerce). This represents actual pilot statistical information, and does NOT include student pilots. These are working professionals...

Some of this information is paraphrased (for easy reading) from four sub-table categories of interest. If you want to research this more, go to http://www.bea.gov/bea/dn/nipaweb/NIPATableIndex.htm#A to look at the NIPA tables. You'll have to search the correct category and subcategory.

To get a really really detailed picture of what's going on in the industry, you would need to cross-reference other tables and sources of info to include demographic information (region, age eligible to retire, number and type of medical certificates approved by FAA, etc, etc). If folks REALLY want to know, perhaps we could get the AOPA or some other group to fund a research project to find some of the more important answers?

Aircraft sales seem to be on a dramatic increase. The following include stuck-wing (multiply by hundreds):

1997 - 120.12
1998 - 162.01
1999 - 232.38
2000 - 240.99
2001 - 245.45

Persons engaged in aviation, including independant operators and contractors (multiply by thousands):

1997 - 1,067
1998 - 1,123
1999 - 1,163
2000 - 1,216
2001 - 1,205

Persons engaged in aviation as full-time employees (multiply by thousands):

1997 - 1,062
1998 - 1,117
1999 - 1,159
2000 - 1,207
2001 - 1,197

Average wage and salary for full time employees in aviation (actual amount):

1997 - 38,693
1998 - 40,402
1999 - 42,520
2000 - 43,817
2001 - 45,715

It's really hard to get specific information on the rotor-head population. I think you will get a better "pulse" of what's going on in this community by looking at information contributed by actual helicopter pilots on this forum and elsewhere. Granted, without an adequate number of demoninators, these bulletin-board "poll" statistics aren't completely accurate - but they give you a idea of what to expect.

One more thing, I couldn't find an adequate definition of what "engaged in aviation" means. Therefore, you should probably assume this includes support personnel, A&P mechanics, and other non-flyers in the aviation industry as a whole. Nevertheless, this isn't a bad "wide-angle" view because you can't fly without the whole team's participation anyway.

*** Edited to add Statistics***

[helislave]

I also agree,

As a general outline i was considering, getting in the organisations, some manufactures most certainly operators to flesh out their requirements criteria, and definitley the insurers.

Intersting concept don't you think?

i was thinking that the operators wouldn't go for it, but as i understand it (correct me those in the know), they would ultimately benefit, better pilots, less training costs, less insurance costs (like the insurers areever going to lower their premiums) and they can drive the criteria as to what they require more precisely and if they have a standard they all agree to, it may stop all of this pilot swapping that seemingly goes on. Particularly in the north sea.

i think for people (the industry, governments and public alike) to give acceptance to helicopter operations we all need to be involved ina coordinated effort, i am NOT advocating unionisation. However, in order for this to get any place at all, then the criteria for selection and training has to be in excess of those current requirements already out there. we have to raise the game. It's like any business, in order to improve ones market share, one has to improve on any that's already existing in order to set the standard!

Thanks Whirlybird...:ok:

[RDRickster]

AGL / Helislave,

Did this die on the vine before bearing any fruit?

RD

[Thomas coupling]

For christ's sake guys who cares about student certification et al . What a load of b***cks.... Let's help this guy out and stop pontificating!



Count: If you are married with kids AND have a lot of equity or disposable assets, then go for it big time.

If not..........

don't waste your wife's time :{

[RDRickster]

TC, the data reflects new pilots to the industry and was relevant to the discuss that AGL and Helislave brought up. Since most of your posts are rather rash, perhaps you already have all the answers. Maybe you'd consider sharing some your vast experience in a more constructive way. Most people give careful consideration to their actions (and comments) before making them. Then again, what the hell do I know.

[George Semel]

There is a whole lot of difference between the number of Student Pilot Certificates issues, the number of students that start taking lessons and the number that even finish and earn a pilot certificate. When I was teaching, we could expect that 70% of the Students that Start will not compleat a private pilot program. A better way to look at it, is the number of New Private Pilot Certificates issued, from there the New Commercial's and well ATP's. The AOPA dose this sort of thing, and if you talk to them you will find that the Pilot population in the US has been going down over the last 20 or so years. To compare The Helicopter Industry with IT or Computers in general, is laughable. PHI's quarterly billing would not amount to a day or two pay for Mircosoft Apple or any of the other Computer players. And what ever you say about it, PHI is a player in the helicopter business, and they have half the machines today that they ran in 1989. It goes to the wider issue, avaition has aways been either boom or bust. The dot.com's was just a hi tech feeding frenzy. You want to fly helicopters or airplanes for a living, fine, there are some things that you will have to do in order to do that, and a lot of it you will not like and even then, you are subject to economic down turns like anybody else. Gee's when its all said and done and strip it all down, its just a job , I never bought the idea that well I just love to fly so its enough. Yea I like to fly, been doing it for close to thirty years now, but its still a job.

Now for the fellow that is asking about it as a career change. You are not to old, and if you are willing to do what you have to do, yea you will be able to fly for a living, it may not be the kind of living you would like or enjoy now. You may have to relocate quite offten, since with helicopters, you have to go to were the work is. And even then most of it is seasonal in nature or supporting the Oil Industry. Yea I said it, One of the bigggest consumers of Helicopter Services is the Oil Business. And Since the Oil Business is so cut throat, and boom or bust. The Helicopter Business takes on some of that nature as well. So what do you do, well I would not borrow money to learn to fly, It will take a little longer but on the other end you will not have a lot of debt to service. The reason is that most of the first couple of jobs are going to be very poor paying. What would be best for you, I can't tell you, since I'm not you only you can determine that.

[Thomas coupling]

George, why couldn't you have said your last line first....and left it at that:bored: :bored: :bored: :bored:

Rd, having given careful consideration to my actions and comments before making them:
who said:
Let me know if there is anything I can contribute. I guess we've hi-jacked Duck's thread long enough; time to start a new one.
and who said:
Did this die on the vine before bearing any fruit?
and who said:
I enjoy the conversations / humor at PPRuNe, except for the occassional threads that seem to attack another person's character or the threads that are too ridiculous or way off topic.

K.I.S.S. ?

[Whirlybird]

OK, now this thread's been all round the houses and all over the world and then some, to get back to the basic question....

count duckula,

what are the chances of getting a pilots job in the real word, it is a bleak as I am led to believe ? or is it a case of you will be okay in the end.

It is a lot of money to spend and I don't mind borrowing it if I can pay it back at the end.


Chances of getting a job are reasonable if you're prepared to go anywhere, do anything, and take a cut in pay, at least at the start. However, by the time you qualify, that could all have changed, and no-one has a reliable crystal ball.

It probably IS as bleak as you've been led to believe, but determination will usually find a way...though not necessarily a particularly good or profitable way.

If you're borrowing the money, will you be able to pay it back at the end? Maybe, and probably eventually. But I know a fair few instructors trying to pay it back on what they earn, and often not succeeding. And if you lose your medical, as one I know did?

OTOH, you only live once, the two saddest words in the English language are "if only", and you rarely regret what you have tried but often what you haven't.

Your choice.

[RDRickster]

Okay... points taken. It's good to see other perspectives.

[Jason2000]

On the Cranfield campus, students are allowed to fly/rent aircraft using the university's own aircraft and it is cheaper than all of the resident flying schools on campus.

The fleet comprises of Bulldog aircraft belonging to the NFLC guys (we do flying labs in their Jetstream flying classroom).

I think that all students doing an aerospace related degree at Cranfield Main get to do a certain degree of flying as part of the course - even us Air Transport Management lot and it looks like it's going to be a lot of fun!

Jason

[Crashondeck]

Genghis

Nice shot of Gazelles - since when did they use those at Cranfield - the only rotary training I saw at Cranfield was in Robbies. But if you get some Gazelle hours as part of an MSc it'll be worth the brain ache!!!

Back to the main thread, having a degree meant that I could have a decent job while I was training for my PPLs CPLs FI etc etc and have work while I was waiting for a proper heli job.

[Vfrpilotpb]

I suppose that I can be called a Dinosaur, will a Degree help you to build experience , or common sense, sadly NO, there are so many degree courses available for people now that picking the right one for your life career can almost require a Degree to help you pick.

Common sense, experiencs plus the right Degree, tons of ambition and tenacity will get you through most things,

will some one explain this to our current Government!:ok:

[coder]

Hello All,

Thanks for all the threads about training which basically say you must be mad to start from scratch.

That said, I must be mad. I know that it costs a fortune and the odds of finding a job are slim but I am still going to start training from a CPL(H).

Does anybody know how many qualified pilots there are in the UK and how many jobs there are in the UK? This would give me a good indication of exactly what the odds are against me. :confused:

Thanks in anticipation

[B Sousa]

If your looking for Odds, We have those here in Vegas.... I will bet there are more Pilots than Jobs. WHICH means absolutely nothing. If you want that job, you work harder or marry the owners daughter, but Dont let it discourage you....

[Camp Freddie]

Coder,

I am sure I saw in the stats on the CAA website that as at 1/4/2000 there was about 1500 CPL(H) +ATPL (H) holders combined, of which I am guessing about 250 have jobs as offshore pilots with either CHC or Bristow.

as at 1/4/03 there were 1155 registered helicopters in the UK, up from 903 in 1998.
the only types to show big increases were the Gazelle (ex-military) at 63, and the Robinson R44 at 128.
not a big industry when you compare it with practically anything else is it.

my advice is if it is a passion go for it (I did), if you have done the maths you just cant justify it on the basis of risk/reward.

regards

CF

[Flingwing207]

Hello Coder

Mad? Perhaps, but then again I suspect it's a job requirement anyway...

Seriously look at Helicopter Adventures (click here) (http://www.heli.com) in Titusville, FL, USA for your JAA training - you can get the full JAA course at a huge savings - easily enough to pay for travel, rent and all the rest.

No matter where you decide to train, chase the dream - otherwise what's the point, really?

[Thomas coupling]

Courtesy of Whirlybird:

As of 31/3/00:

a) Total helo pilots - 3999
b) ATPL - 1471
c) CPL- 144
d) PPL - 2384


Doesn't seem like many CPL, eh?

How many of those have them attached to their practising aeroplane licence and don't use the helo bit?

[sinsall]

Making my mind up this week!!
I have been debating this now for a very long time. Love everything about flying in helicopters and have found a great instructor and school.
Im going from zereo to cpl. Im giving up work and about to through myself in full-on.

However,I dont fancy off-shore and feel unless I build up a zillion hours(thats alot!!)there is little chance of earning a good wage.
I have been offered a 12month full time course fixed wing and cant help thinking there would be more chance of a secure wage.

Fixed wing starts Friday and is far less convenient for me than the heli school but would travel if it meant a better chance of gaining employment.
Any last minute advice would be appreciated!

[Nigel Osborn]

Hi Coder

Don't give up your day job!!:ok:

[coder]

Thanks for your replies :ok:

I'm still going to go for it. I currently work in IT which is experiencing a similar "more people than jobs" environment at the moment, so what the hell. I will stick with the day job but only to pay for my lessons.

[Whirlybird]

I don't have a crystal ball.

No-one here can live your life for you.

toss a coin...you always know when it comes down WRONG.

Good luck whichever you decide. :ok:

[DeltaNg]

GO Fixed Wing!!

The Offshore ROute is really the only way in unless
you're dead lucky, and its hard to get out of. The pay
is okay but the novelty of crap wx, crap management, crap aircraft
soon wears thin after about three weeks. Go
for the shirt and tie option.

deltang

ps Im standing in a rubber suit writing this.

[six-sixty]

I was where you are a few months ago. Just do your homework and be very aware of the cost of getting the experience and ratings you need for the type of work you want. Offshore seems to be so prominent because it is the only way to build the hours you need to get the other jobs!

Be aware of your age also. I'm 35 and basically got scared off of spending the best part of £100k only to be very broke and unemployed at the end. A 50/50 chance of a job would be acceptable, but I'm reading more like 1/100 at the mo.

Spending £less than half that (i.e. FW) seems a better gamble, even with current dreadful market, plus for old gits like me there are niche positions in turboprop regionals etc.

From some of the feedback I had, if you are slightly hesitant about helos, they are probably not for you. Something about having to have them in your blood, or something...

Anyway I've started the ATPLs part-time. They overlap hugely with the FW course, so I get to keep my options open for a while!

cheers
S-S

[buttline]

In the UK there are plenty of ex-North Sea chopper pilots now flying jets for airlines - I've met lots of them.

I've never met a jet pilot who then went to the North Sea. (Although some do winter contracts for North Sea and work for charter airlines in the summer).

At the end of the day, I reckon most pilots just chase the best pay cheque at their preferred base once the initial thrill has mellowed somewhat and it's become a job.

It's probably easier to get a rotary instructor job than a fw instructor job at the moment (or at least it was in the summer) but you need 300hrs PIC to start rotary FI course so much more expensive (better to go FAA CPL/FI for a year then convert if you can relocate). Check out www.heli.com for a good JAA/FAA heli school in the U.S.

The FW job market is finally starting to look up - now is probably a good time to start training to catch the next upswing. (Don't get in on the back-end of the upswing or else you are first out on the downswing).

If you get qualified in fw before you hit 35 and are prepared to absolutely go for it, try and get into the ATP scheme at CTC - www.ctcaviation.com and you'll be able to get into RH seat of B737 / A320 as your first job with Easyjet, JMC, Britannia among others. This will give you a 5 year jump start on your career.

Good luck - let us know what you decide.

[sinsall]

Thanks for all the advice. Didnt even no about CTC!!
Ill give them a call in the morning to see what they can offer.
Once again cheers,need to get my arxse in2 gear and make a decision!

PS. DeltaNG:dare I ask what your doing in that rubber suit!?

[DeltaNg]

Rubber suit is the 'de-rigeur' outfit for the much
forgotten and rain-soaked North Sea Pilot.
Often has an aroma of 'guff' and the odd eggy stain.

[Arm out the window]

This advice is all well and good, but just remember, if your wings don't rotate, you take it up the d***!

[Rich Lee]

If you must ask others whether or not you should become a helicopter pilot I strongly recommend that you stay as far away from helicopters and the helicopter industry as possible.

This is no occupation for the indecisive or the timid. Science may one day discover a helicopter gene in human DNA, but I am certain that if it exists not all pilots will be blessed with it.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I suspect Rich that there may be two separate genes there - one for engineers and one for pilots.

I've met very few people cursed or blessed with both - I suspect strongly that Shawn Coyle has both, and probably your good self. Me, I've not so-far displayed the helicopter pilots gene so fly FW, but given that I actually quite enjoy rotor dynamics analysis, probably have the helicopter engineer's gene.

Conversely, Whirlybird with whom I've had many technical discussions about both flavours of aviation I'm sure would be the first to admit that she has the helicopter pilots gene, but has never shown any particular signs of an engineers gene of any description.

G


N.B. The difference between cursed and blessed in this context is not meant to insult anybody, more a case of whether you get to play with helicopters using your own or somebody else's money.

[Rich Lee]

To Genghis the Engineer

Excellent points. I had meant the helicopter gene to be inclusive of pilots, engineers and anyone else in the industry but did a poor job of making the point. As for Shawn Coyle, his genetic makeup remains a mystery of science, but I have heard he gets ill in the presence of Krypotonite.

[sinsall]

Rich Lee....hmmm,what a load of crxp.The gene you are talking about is called the 'narrow minded' gene.

I was 'hell-bent 'on flying helicopters until those without the narrow minded gene(helicopter pilots) suggested I flew fixed wing for reasons of job security and there safety record.

To somepeople the cost of training is nothing,but to me its a massive gamble hence doing alot of 'research' which is different to being 'indecisive'.

I have recieved some good,constructive advice but your post reminds me so much of a few TVR enthusiasts I know(hobby)no matter what build quality issues and speed six engine failures, they see TVR's as the most reliable cars ever built!!!
As for timid I will take you out in my t350 and we will see who is timid!!;)

[Genghis the Engineer]

You have some valid points there - those who have not paid for much or any of their own training sometimes forget the pressures upon those who do have to pay every penny themselves. But knowing a little of Rich Lee's day-job and background, I think you may lose on the last. :O

On a more serious note, there clearly are people with the ability to handle certain jobs - and either flying helicopters (or flying them well anyway), or being able to handle the particular form of maths that goes with flight mechanics and control systems, are far from universal attributes however well trained or resourced somebody is.

G

[Rich Lee]

Sinsall,

I apologize if my comments have offended you. My point was that if you really want to fly helicopters, or do anything in life for that matter, you must have the desire and focus to, as Nike says, 'just do it'. If you are 'hell-bent' on flying helicopters it matters little what others tell you-or what your research tells you.

The interesting thing about research and data is that there is always the exception to the norm....the outliers. Most data suggests that many fixed wing pilots have greater job security and a higher level of safety then helicopter pilots. All your research will tell you is that you have a greater chance of success as a fixed wing pilot. In general this is true. Yet I know helicopter pilots who are paid as much, if not more than many senior airline captains. I know helicopter pilots who fly well designed, well maintained helicopters that have never had an accident, incident or significant in-flight problem. I know airline pilots who have struggled through lay-offs, strikes, and a series of non-airline jobs who have never made it. I know fixed wing pilots who have died or have been injured in accidents.

There are many different types of helicopter pilot jobs and many different types of fixed wing pilot jobs. It is difficult, if not impossible to compare the two general occupational fields in regard to safety, pay, security, job fullfillment or status.

You have made a choice to attend a fixed wing course of instruction. That choice was based on your personal situation. I wish you the best of luck in your studies. If you possess the helicopter gene at some point in your life, perhaps when you have more time and money, you will come back to helicopters. If not, that is okay too. Stop sweating the choices you have made. Live long and prosper my brother.

[sinsall]

Rich Lee,
I wasn't offended just a tad tired first thing:ugh:
I currently work for Sky (camera's)so looking to carry on part-time whilst flying and hopefully end up flying the heli instead of holding the camera. Sky have just bought there own helicopter (sky news)and have employed a full-time pilot,anyone know who he is?can't see how that would be cost effective???
once again thx for all the advice
:ok:

[Whirlybird]

The helicopter gene is frequently linked to a gene for not caring too much about comfort, security, and having lots of money.

Genghis, you are quite right; I definitely have the helicopter gene, in fact the two linked genes mentioned above. Engineering gene? That belongs to another species I think. :D

[muse_77]

hey everybody,

i'm sure this thread has been done to death before so my apologies in advance. however, there is some important information i'd like to find out.

i have the necessary funds to put myself through a helicopter school and hopefully be well on the way to having a new career. there are certain things confusing me at the moment, mainly license types and where they can be used. i know that training in the uk is extremely expensive so my considered alternatives are australia and canada, however i would like to work in the uk some time in the near future.

is it advisable for me to train in places like oz or canada (mainly considering costs)? are there any recommendations for me from you guys? how long could i expect to work before i get a job back in the uk? do you have any other courses of action that you could suggest?

just to give you a rough idea, i have about 30,000 pounds to use which will need to cover both training costs and living expenses too, for however long it will take ( i'm guessing at about 6 months).

thanks again for your replies in advance, or failing that could you redirect me to a post in the past that is relevant to this.

Dan.

[Flingwing207]

Hi Muse,

You might also consider the USA - Helicopter Adventures (click here) (http://www.heli.com) has a full JAA program which will cost much less than doing it in the UK. As a side benefit, you will also end up with the FAA ratings (since the JAA training mostly covers the FAA req's, very little additional training is required).

[leading edge]

VB is the best beer in the world. You poms don't appreciate good beer because you don't have any there!!

[Heli-Ice]

Hi Muse.

As Flingwing207 said, one of the better options in flight training for us Europians is to go to HAI.

Don't forget that flight training is also supposed to include some fun.

Heli-Ice

[Quarto]

Hi, I have been reading PPRUNE for a while now and thought I would take the plunge with my first post on the boards and ask for some advice from some experienced aviators regarding a career in aviation.

I am at the moment in the penultimate year of a degree at University but desperatley would like to pursue a career in aviation flying helicopters.

It seems to me that there are two options available:
1.Attempt to enter the Armed forces and receive training through them. Which would depend on whether I passed the selection process(I've heard it is a pretty tough and strict). I would be able to attemt the selection procedure after I finish my degree.
OR
2. Attempt to get a civilian licence. The main problem I would have with this road would be the financial barrier. Due to the downturn in the North Sea Oil market it seems that sponsorship with civilian compainies are non-existent at the moment. This would mean having to work for a period to gather up some financial resources before I could begin training. I wouldn't mind doing this except it will delay the time by a year or two before I could begin training.

Which way to go?

In a way I would also be interested in hearing how any of you qualified and experienced pilot's would choose your route of training if you were to start your flying career tomorrow?

I realise similar questions have been asked before but when searching throught the boards I couldn't find one that answered my particular questions.

I look forward to hearing your replies.

Thanks,
Quarto

[Thomas coupling]

Welcome Quarto, here to stay I hope!

Easy question, easy answer:

GO mil!!!!

Apart from getting your hours free of charge, you get the experience that goes with it, taught by some of the best in the world. It's a great life anyway without the flying!!!

Civvy street - hard, expensive, not quality controlled and a lesser guarantee of a job at the end of it.

Do it right the first time - assuming of course you fancy the military life style...and there's the rub!

Good luck

[Watchoutbelow]

I agree with T.C

After taking Civy route and spending the GNP of a few small African nations on my training I find that most operaters won't give you the time of day unless you got thousands of hours and an instrument rating under your belt or have a lot of experience on twin turbines.

Seems in this day and age if you want to get into Commercial Heli flying in Europe and have a realistic chance of having a halfway decent career you would want to have somebody else paying for training through sponsership (Which has pretty much vanished) or through the military.

Despite what Flying schools will promise its not all Rosie out there.

So my advice go Mil or don't go at all.

[Helinut]

IMHO,

the previous posts are right - If you can get Aunty Betty to pay for your flying training, do so.

You will have to make your own personal judgment about whether you would be happy with the "military life".

The flying will be likely to be interesting too.

I too have gone down the civy route - I started flying far too late to join the mil as a pilot. I love the flying but it does not make any financial sense to pay your own way. Civilian helicopter flying is so marginally viable; there is no real money in it for anyone.

[RDRickster]

I spent 13 years in the military, and I truly loved it! I wasn't an aviator in the Army, and I think that is one of your concerns. Even if you don't get the position you want initially, you will gain valuable working experience, build a solid record, and will have many benefits as a veteran... not to mention the opportunity to see and do some very cool things!

I didn't start flying until I became a civilian. I would have stayed in the military for 20 years, but I had a few financial opportunities that I couldn't pass on from the outside (became a computer geek and couldn't afford to stay in the Army).

If you decide to join the military, sign up for the minimum specified time allowed for the position sought. Military life isn't for everyone, so if you decide it isn't for you - at least you won't have a L - O - N - G committment ahead of you. I don't know how the U.K. military is structured very well, but in the U.S. you can still apply for WOFT (Warrent Officer Flight Training) slots from any job field.

BEFORE YOU JOIN - Make sure that you can pass the required medical (if flying is the only thing you want to do). Eyesite is a big one. Although "waivers" may be available, don't count on one (they are usually hard to get). Good luck!

[Crashondeck]

All of what has been posted above is good advise.

I am a civvy through and through and much like you, wasnt sure about military life suiting me. I chose to start flying after establishing a career in a proper job. I have been lucky and got a brilliant flying job, but there have been many people I have met along the way that ran out of money or simply couldnt get that first job.

So if I was you, get down to the University Air Squadron NOW and start flying with them - shows you are keen - brownie points at selection.

If you decided to go civvy, use your degree and get a proper job and earn decent money. Forget the flying for a while until you have saved enough to do at least your PPL.

Always make sure that you have a plan b - ie could go back to a proper job in case the aviation bit didnt work out. The way the North Sea is at the moment, job security is not good (in fact that goes for just about any part of the helicopter industry), having something to fall back on is no bad thing.

But dont let that put you off - go for it, but carefull planning is of utmost importance.

[Helinut]

Crashondeck's advice is right on the button for those who are able to keep another line of work going. Even though I now have a relatively well-paid and relatively secure flying job, I have just re-established contacts and do some work in a former career - the added security blanket is a considerable comfort when virtuallu no helicopter pilot's job seems to be secure.........

[IHL]

All my training has been civilian, I paid for my plank-wing licenses and then went to college (Government funded) for rotary.

It has worked out ok for me, but to do it over I think I would try the military cause you get on complex / high performance aircraft alot sooner.

[Quarto]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the replies. I found them very useful!!

The military does seem the best option. It seems like a brilliant way to learn to fly helicopters with some very interesting flying.

Unfortunately the UAS don't recruit people in the penultimate year of their degree. I have been 'on the books', so to speak of an armed force since sixth form at school and have had a few informal interviews with them. Perhaps it is time to take it to the next stage.

Any advice from mil/ex-mil rotorheads on how to boost my chances in the selection procedure would be very warmly received.

Thanks again guys,

Quarto

[rhmaddever]

Hi,

I am currently working towards a PPL (H) and have always wanted to progress and achieve my CPL (H).

I am now concerned that I would not be able to find a job (inland) when I have recieved my licence.

Does anyone have any comments on CPL(H) jobs or even better ways to achieve my CPL(H) eg Bristows sponsorship scheme.

Thanks

Richard

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

rhmaddever wrote:I am currently working towards a PPL (H) and have always wanted to progress and achieve my CPL (H).

I am now concerned that I would not be able to find a job (inland) when I have recieved my licence.

Does anyone have any comments on CPL(H) jobs or even better ways to achieve my CPL(H) eg Bristows sponsorship scheme.Richard, how on earth did you ever get the idea that you even could get a job after you receive your CPL(H)? Because whoever put that bit of misinformation in your head should be severely chastised.

Sorry to report, it is not possible to get your CPL and then go to work as one.

That is the short answer. For the expanded version, look up the various FAQ's and other recent threads on this very subject.

[autosync]

When it comes to the first job, you just cant be fussy,
If you get offered gun running in Iraq for the fedayeen, take it!!
Work does not land itself on a plate for you. Ya got to except the cards your dealt in the early satges, all the way up to 3000 hours, then you can stop and think.